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Is Map Making Craft dying? Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   theRipper Icon

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:21 PM

View PostBladeKiller, on 15 January 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Part of the problem seems to be that some mappers don't want to make the types of maps that are popular and then sneer at those maps. When we first saw Turnpike we didn't think people would like it. Surprise! Dressing Room was made so you could try on fun stuff but people liked playing it and asked for the different gametypes. It seems that our community likes smaller maps most of the time. It's that fast and furious gameplay that attracts people. Most people don't enjoy wondering around endless corridors looking for someone to fight. Perhaps the best way to develop a reputation as a mapper who makes maps worth playing is to start with small ones that are fun. Then when you have a reputation for making great maps make a bigger one. If people know this mapper makes great maps they are going to be more willing to try the bigger map.



tetris is extremely small. :P
A.K.A. [idgaf.]Face(Clan Leader)


#22 User is offline   wraith Icon

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:25 PM

i made a map once.. one room and called it hell.....

edit: should have been more clear... i called it "hell" only in my mind cuz i couldn't figure out radiant fast enough hah!

This post has been edited by wraith: 15 January 2012 - 11:19 PM


#23 User is offline   Nexu Icon

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:11 AM

View Postxandaxs, on 15 January 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

nexu, Competition players don't tend to help out mappers by testing their maps :/

That's not always true. It was testing from competitive players why Orbital was re-released with a SL edition.
To name a few other mappers of whom I noticed that they tried to get competitive players input were Delirium and Skaz (tho the latter is involved in competitive scene himself).

#24 User is offline   xandaxs Icon

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 07:20 PM

latest*

The only difference between SL and the normal orbital is some bug fixes and he prevented that MAC bug that allows Mac players to see trough walls.
And it might not always be true, but it is most of the times, and it is really hard to find someone willing to do it.

#25 User is offline   spazzattack Icon

Posted 16 January 2012 - 08:19 PM

View PostBladeKiller, on 15 January 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Part of the problem seems to be that some mappers don't want to make the types of maps that are popular and then sneer at those maps. When we first saw Turnpike we didn't think people would like it. Surprise! Dressing Room was made so you could try on fun stuff but people liked playing it and asked for the different gametypes.

Oh just in case you think I'm sneering at maps like dressing room, I'm not: it's just that I see no point making something similar. In fact what you say proves my point: that we can't always predict what will be popular!

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#26 User is offline   BludShoT Icon

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:41 AM

I know this is a bit of a thread necro, but,

Nexu and BK are right here.

First of all, the raw numbers of maps coming out and mappers involved in mapping is probably directly proportional to how popular the game is. It's quite possible that %-wise there's not less mappers now.

Secondly, the barriers to entry in modding and mapping for a 13 year old game are huge compared to new games. The tools and support and communities for games like L4D2 and Portal2 are just SO MUCH EASIER to get into. Plus the user base is much larger, so that attracts creative people who want to make things that a lot of people play.

It is true that there is a disconnect between league communities and mapping communities. But whose fault is that really? Now and then, I have tried on and off for a decade to bridge that gap, with occasional success. The truth is, that almost all the mappers who made competition-worthiness a high priority in their mapping ended up with maps that people played at least to some extent.

I submit that mappers can't expect gamers to come to them to help out of nowhere. Why not go to the gamers? Going straight to the competition gamers via league forums is not for beginners though. You need to be further along to do that and have it be useful. Otherwise people will just trash your map and frustrate you.

Instead, you need to start smaller. Meet some people, find a nice clan (not a nub clan though) who will help you with initial map testing. Get your map to a point where people are telling you it is becoming a good competition map before approaching a wider audience for feedback.

The other big thing to think about is what are your goals for your map? Do you want to just make something pretty for yourself, make something for pubs, or make something core like Casa/Turnpike/Abbey. It's very often that mappers are making something for themselves, and stubbornly refuse to alter it or listen to feedback. If that's what you really want to do and that makes you happy, then you should do that. But don't make something that doesn't really fit this game and then get upset when people don't play it.

Designing a successful Urban Terror map (for competition) means following preset rules of what works and what doesn't work. It's just like trying to build a car or a rocket or something. You can't just decide to make your rocket have giant wings or something because you think it looks cooler. It won't fly.

The reasons for the constraints on what makes a good Urban Terror map are *not* just because gamers don't want to give your map a chance. There are real quantifiable constraints. Again, if you don't care about this, and just want to make your giant desert map with open spaces and humvees, or your detailed city or weird castle box map, then go ahead and do that, but don't get mad if people don't play your map.

Study the popular maps in UrT. Think about what they have in common. Scale, connectivity, defined areas and not too few or too many connections. Not too much verticality. Try to understand the constraints of the Q3 engine. The reason that Casa's areas are split up and not just buildings plunked down in a huge open area like BF2's Karkand, is not arbitrary! Your map needs to be split up or else FPS will suffer. As a bonus, when you build your map in a way that is good for FPS performance, it will also play better, because splitting up the areas results in better game play.

In my opinion, mappers need to focus more on game play and layout earlier in their mapping process. Then you could get people to play your map and tell you the gameplay is no good *before* you spend a million hours making a bunch of detail.

#27 User is offline   Delirium Icon

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:46 AM

I'm not going to write a whole novel like Blud, but I completely agree with what you've just written.

I think the hardest thing for a lot of mappers is the motivation.

#28 User is offline   radiant Icon

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 04:19 PM

Bludshot, the q3engine limits are ridiculous nowdays. That's a fact.
If you always care for those limits, you'll end up mapping close, narrow, boring maps.

Casa it's cute to see but, as a gamer, it's the kind of map i find boring to play since you can't play any tactics there, no differences in classes, just running and shooting in front of what appears to you.

I think the remake for UT of CS Dust it's a splitted map too and is far better that Casa, but that's just my taste.

Eagle and Riyadh are far better.

Hopefully larger and more open maps can be supported with the help of newer cpus and gpus, balancing the q3engine problems.

Back in topic: a more efficient Servers Browser for UT, with more filters, rating for the maps and gimmicks, could help people mapping again.

Personally i map because i play in lan with a group and i find funny to test different stuff made by myself, and creating maps that can avoid my friends complaining about unbalancing, bugs, etc.

p.s.Horse-a-f is GOD

#29 User is offline   Delirium Icon

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:46 PM

You must be new here :)

#30 User is offline   Rylius Icon

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:02 PM

View PostDelirium, on 06 August 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

You must be new here :)

I want to favourite or upvote this post so badly

Also, kudos to BludShoT. That post is amazing and describes the situation very accurately.
You okay if I put it up on the CMM.org Wiki as some kind of introduction?

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