[Gagoyu]

The current weapon balancing makes absolutely no sense at all especially the FR F1. It's not even funny, because it's not a case of lack of foresight or opinion. Someone just looking at numbers can tell how badly balanced the FR F1 is, who balanced this seriously?

Look, the FR F1 has a faster bolt action than the SR8, that much is true. However, I am not going to compare it to the SR8. I am going to compare it to the PSG.

Let me ask a question to the person who "balanced" the FR F1: What does the FR F1 have over the PSG? Where does it excel? Considering its bolt action is slower than PSG's semi auto it should have some strengths. But in fact, it's even worse. It is worse than the PSG despite being slower.

PSG superiority:
* Higher rate of fire
* Larger magazine
* More damage (97% on torso versus 90%)
* No scope cancel when getting hit

So what is FR F1 good for, again? Tell me 1 single thing it has over the PSG. What was the balancer's reasoning when tweaking these numbers?

If you ask me, you need to have the FR F1 do 100% damage on torso (no kevlar), so that it is superior to the SR8 on targets with no kevlar, but weaker than the PSG on targets with kevlar (see the bad points above). The SR8 is the "middle ground", same level at both kevlar/no kevlar targets. (so, overkill for no kevlar)

Now I'm by no means a pro but come on, this is just ridiculous by just looking at numbers.

You guys just balance randomly or are afraid of tweaks?

The SPAS also needs rework or tweaking. The Benelli is surprisingly decently balanced, but SPAS damage is just too low.

PS: I'd argue that two-shots to the helmet with LR300 or M4 should also be nerfed to 49% instead of 51% so they don't kill with two headshots on helmet, that way the AK will have an advantage on two headshots considering its lower rate of fire/higher recoil which makes it fair, but that's for another topic; however there is a reason 90% of people choose certain guns over others.

[sungod]

I disagree with Headshot damage to AK and LR300.
AK has 58 damage to helmet.
AK has 2nd highest stopping power which you didn't take into account.
That makes up for the cons you mentioned.

we should concentrate on FR F1 and if you want to discuss LR300 and AK better will be to make another thread.

I am also not sure how to use FR F1 effectively yet.
Maybe it is the fastest?


Regards
Sungod.

[Gagoyu]

Yeah, I was going to focus on FR F1, the last part was just a sidenote, I even said it's for another topic in there :p

FR F1 can't be faster than the PSG since it is bolt action and PSG is semi auto, though, so it still makes no sense that it does lower damage. Not to mention it has scope cancel like the SR8 and a smaller magazine than PSG (6 bullets vs 8).

Giving it 100% torso damage (that is, with no kevlar) would make it better in those situations than the PSG, even though it is slower, because it will 1shot those enemies. It would also be better than SR8 because it's slightly faster in that case, but will be behind/worse against Kevlar enemies. (slower than PSG, and I assume PSG is balanced relative to SR8)

This post has been edited by Gagoyu: 05 October 2016 - 05:57 PM

[Mod Iye]

Gagoyu, on 05 October 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

However, I am not going to compare it to the SR8. I am going to compare it to the PSG. [..stuff argument about it being UP]

And there we have the point. Originally, the frf1 was modeled to replace the sr8, hence its bolt action. And as that it was balanced against the sr8. It turned out to be a nerfed merge between the sr8 and the psg1 though. (it actually got buffed over early RCs). Im not saying that this was good form a design PoV, but basically its what happened.

The next thing is, it was chosen to release it "as is" (with slight tweaks) and then balance it according to more popular feedback. (same with the 100% pistol acc change, which more or less seems to be an accident?)

Gagoyu, on 05 October 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

If you ask me, you need to have the FR F1 do 100% damage on torso (no kevlar), so that it is superior to the SR8 on targets with no kevlar, but weaker than the PSG on targets with kevlar (see the bad points above). The SR8 is the "middle ground", same level at both kevlar/no kevlar targets. (so, overkill for no kevlar)

I guess this could work. i will like to a a few other topics on this as well. github issue, forums post&topic

An important point to note is that i personally, and probably nearly everybody, would always pick the sr8 over the frf1 unless you nerf the sr8 (dont. worst idea you could have xD)
What advantage do you gain by a higher firerate at 1shot torso hits? its a 1shot. you dont need to fire faster. Unless there is two enemies, and than that possibly doesnt save you. And if one has a kevlar you wish you had a sr8.
If you want to spam a door, you use a psg. Basically unless you make the frf1 STRONGER than both, it wont ever be meta for anything. Sad but true fact.

Gagoyu, on 05 October 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

The SPAS also needs rework or tweaking. The Benelli is surprisingly decently balanced, but SPAS damage is just too low.

The benelli works because of its falloff and the low mag count combined with 0 spread. its not UP because it can 1shot and its not OP because it cant snipe. Thats basically it.
The SPAS on the other hand has the issue of its pellets and the dmg they do solo vs. combined. Also it has that ridiculous knockback (which isn't a bad thing straight away though). I agree though that the spas could use a slight dmg boost, but reduce the KB as a tradeoff.

Gagoyu, on 05 October 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

PS: I'd argue that two-shots to the helmet with LR300 or M4 should also be nerfed to 49% instead of 51% so they don't kill with two headshots on helmet, that way the AK will have an advantage on two headshots considering its lower rate of fire/higher recoil which makes it fair.

No. Helmet causes no bleeding so you would always NEED 3 HS for a kill. At this point you can just shoot the kevlar and 1 feet and have a kill. Basically this would go contrary to the "groin nerf" as well.

Gagoyu, on 05 October 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

however there is a reason 90% of people choose certain guns over others.

Well yes. and that will always be the case. I wont ever pick a psg or a frf1 over a sr8. I also wont ever seriously play with a HK (suprise).
In the end a game will always have a best gun. There simply is nothing you can do about it. Everyone in CSGO would pick a AK as a rifle, but CTs cant.
The question is: what reasons do you want people to use your guns for? because they are fun? good? strong? (OP?) Does it actually matter that one combination of parameters is more "meta" than another? (lr/m4 vs ak)

btw. lets have a discussion about the differences between LR and M4..... :P

This post has been edited by Iye: 05 October 2016 - 07:09 PM

[Quit e4c9cdc1]

Gagoyu, on 05 October 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

So what is FR F1 good for, again?

I'm agree with you. FRF1 have worse tactical properties than PSG, SR8, G36.
I see no reason in FRF1.

[SilverFoxZ]

I agree FR1 needs a buff, you also forgot to mention that PSG also doesnt have the movement penalty like the FR1 and Sr8.

So since dmg values were already discussed here I want to throw in two more values which could make the FR1 more unique and useful.

1. As said above, remove movement penalty from it like the PSG.

2. FR1 causes bleeding when hitting torso and even through kevlar. We can just pretend it shoots some kind of special AP rounds, to make it fit UrT lore.

[Quit e4c9cdc1]

Famas would be in demand more than FR1.

[Mod Iye]

we already have enough esports with the pro90.