[Vortex2]

I was just watching Counter-Strike, and I've been thinking about each game (UrT and CS) a lot over the last few weeks... I haven't necessarily been comparing them, but rather appreciating aspects of each separately.

Anyway, I'm watching Summit on the map, Cobble right now. Mythic is on the terrorist side, which is the spawn with the big stairway.



How important is it that the physics be 100% identical to 'classic' Urban Terror (with the addition of wall-running and vaulting) and are we open to additional minor changes that could result in a better play-experience? I can see myself in the mode of thought in which I would be grossly offended at the thought of changing an already perfect game, but I'm just thinking that a slight adjustment in favour of more believable physics could be a good idea..,

While I do think it's cool that we can treat stairways as 'ramps', would gameplay be more enjoyable if a more severe movement penalty was applied, at least when sliding UP steps? I'm not sure I'm really concerned, I just thought I would share my thoughts and was wondering how everyone feels about this topic.

It would have an impact on larger maps with steps like Cambridge and Casa which seem to be a little slower in competitive play. It would also put the person who wants to play window on Turnpike in a more precarious high-risk (high-reward?) situation.

Put simply, high-ground would be slightly less advantageous than it is at present because there would be a greater cost in reaching it (in the case of there being a stairway, and due to a case of being closer to 'stuck' than 'in the best spot'), while spawns on certain maps would be better protected due to additional stamina having to be expended in attacking (eg. Subway).

Also, by associating stairways not as 'basically flat and usually safe (because power-slidable)' parts of the map, but as 'slightly slower and thus costly' parts of the map, teams could more easily anticipate where opponents are (with more information about where they want to be) and where they are more likely to go when spotted. This would also create more pressure for each player to try to plan ahead and maybe greater incentive to try and perfect dazzling 'moves' for escaping and/or avoiding enemy fire once discovered.

If we see more use of parkour physics due to avoiding steps/stairways, it will probably result in healthier map-flow/movement and less passive/defensive play (due to making very strong spots like narrow a bit less attractive, unless...). By having more people trying to do parkour stuff, more players will likely see and appreciate how cool the game is by realizing the endless possibilities available at a given point in time rather than relying on primarily aim and camping or playing a spot defensively before the tragedy of concluding that 'UrT is very similar to most other FPS games'.

To be honest, I just want to see greater pressure for each player to rely more on ability, quick reaction and momentary awareness rather than always taking advantage of the map itself by identifying 'situations' and consequently falling into an overly 'meta' or deterministic mode of thinking (especially prevalent and distracting in competitive play) rather than experiencing the feeling of sublime freedom at all times... that anything is possible.

Of course, this would be a minor change and all of this would be experienced passively.

Thoughts?

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 24 February 2017 - 06:01 AM

[Mod Iye]

If you can slide up stairs is the mappers choice. If the stairs are deep/high enough, you wont be able to slide upwards, instead you will end up getting "stuck" on each one. If the mapper decides to clip the stairs, it will simply act as a ramp. In a lot of cases this is done to prevent "sudden" changes in altitude, which can be quite annoying, since they set off your crosshair, suddenly pop you out of cover,...

Also i dont really agree with your reasoning. I dont see a penalty for sliding upwards would make high ground less advantageous. In fact, i would imagine it would make it slightly better. Simply if you are there first, you have the advantage in any case. Now if someone would push you they would be slower or loose more stamina, with is a disadvantage for them, but the person already up on the high ground simply doesnt care about that effect - he is holding an "angle" (which may end up rather big xD)

[Vortex2]

Great points! Thank you. I realize steps are already troublesome, I was just thinking that if they presented more of a challenge by default (as they would in real life, because I imagine a practioner of parkour would be weary of them and unable to do much with them) that it would have a positive effect on gameplay and make higher ground more significant.

Considering many shots can be made from long range with any gun (save for Negev and shotguns :P), I think the accuracy penalty is less significant than the movement or stamina penalty which could prevent escape depending on how much time the player has to get settled. (Resulting in more pressure to attack early rather than waiting)

All in all, I think it's something that doens't need to be changed. I was mostly just concerned with the weirdness of sliding up steps

Also, it did occur to me that a greater sense of realism in the physics (rather than rocketing up ladders for some reason as in CS for instance) could result in better immersion and a greater more cohesive sense of fun (and satisfaction/fulfilment) while playing by virtue of feeling more 'in the game'. Idk, just some thoughts.

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 23 February 2017 - 11:52 PM

[cessquill]

Iye, on 23 February 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

If you can slide up stairs is the mappers choice.

This is one of the annoyances I have of things currently - and I fully appreciate that it's probably just me.

Because mappers have a lot of freedom, there is little continuity between maps. I can slide up a gradient on this map, but not that. Climb a lamppost on one but not the other. Climb on this roof but not that. You get the idea.

I get that we all learn the maps eventually and get on with it, but I think I'd prefer the mappers to build the maps and the engine to do the physics. If you're having to clip it to improve game-play, then revise your design.

I know it's not that simple, and I apologise.

[Vortex2]

cessquill, on 24 February 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

This is one of the annoyances I have of things currently...

I know it's not that simple, and I apologise.

Interesting. Yeah, this is a complex topic...

Let's use our imagination here for a moment.

I view TIME as a dichotomy which is simultaneously true in both polarities...

On one hand, time is a matter of fixed cycles, it is totally linear and displays a great deal of repetition and order in producing predictable patterns which we have come to rely on to stay organized. If we view life in such a way, we can measure the duration of a lifetime whether it be an approximation based on gathered data regarding some form of life such as a flower or a plant or how 'long' a human being was actually capable of living on this planet.

Then, if we 'go up a level', we're able to see the time for what it is as simply a materialistic repetition which offers little context to our lives but which rather is a construct within which we find ourselves effectively 'fitting in' based on what we know about it. Consequently, as we begin to recognize ubiquity and commonality amongst ourselves via accepting this repetition, growing tired of of it and seeking greater things... TIME itself becomes less about how long a thing will live and more about how it wil live and watching it grow :).

Ok, so with this dichotomy of time, I imagine the best way to live is to be in the present moment, which is what is taught throughout various religions and is the goal of practices such as zen, Taoism, mindfulness and meditation. If we are doing this, then the bottom or left part of the dichotomy we have just viewed would present a bit of a distraction, however it would indeed be the foundation for our living. The top or right part of the dichotomy would be representative of the freedom of infinite expression, and together in balance, our ability to create and contribute corresponding intelligence to the world around us (experienced by whoever is around to see it).

Where am I going with this? Ok, I was just thinking, realistically whether a lamppost is slick/wet or dry and grippy could be the difference in being able to climb it right? In this regard, what is simply is and it's kind of neat that the map-developer has this degree of control, isn't it? Because maybe it's a thematic detail, as in the case of Docks where it might be more believable that a lamppost may be difficult to climb because of dampness, but, then again we could be surprised to find a dry lamppost which had been made grippier due to previous dampness... In any case, the map offers an experience which is effectively a unique sliver of time in which we, the players, interact with each other given our individual contexts and in doing so, form one larger narrative which effectively develops finally into a) A 20-minute match with a decided victor and B) a timeless culminative effort in play. Together, we have the experience of playing Urban Terror. (In the present moment, not now, because technically you aren't playing it, you're reading this.)

But, in the case of steps... there is no way to rationally accept that there is a difference which is dependent upon the game physics which creates a sense not of order, but of discord and discrepancy... This, to me, makes the game less attractive in turn not because my character and I can powerslide on some steps and struggle on others... but ultimately, because we are naturally accustomed to a sense of uniform natural order, we need for a sense of government seen in the physics of our experience in playing in the microcosmic environment of the game (beacuse we're accustomed to and have grown to expect it, because of our experiences in macrocosmic life...) So it's a mind-bending question of whether this is something which should be seen or if we can do without it... and I'm afraid it's a matter of preference.

I have some thoughts on this. While I recognize that the effective playing of each map is and should be a unique experience onto itself, how much of this is actually the creative responsibility of the map-maker? Up until now, we've easily been able to accept this aspect of UrT as offering an attractive dynamic to the gameplay by simple virtue of the (soft-)necessity to have to appreciate the unique quality of each map, seeing the work of it's kind creator and giving respect and credit wherever it is due...

But, should the map-maker (who we all love and respect) have control over the high-level aspect of in-game-physics (in addition all of the other wonderful things they can already do for us), or should the actual physics be a consistent and reliable fixed constant which is at the very least a decision made by the game-developers?

If there are noticeable inconsistencies in gameplay between maps, is this something that distracts us or does it add to the experience of playing Urban Terror by allowing us to appreciate a greater degree of variance and diversity?

Is the creative collective thing a part of UrT's original indie-appeal as a mod?
^will this be a part of the polished game's appeal in the end? Note: I don't think of Counter-Strike as a mere mod anymore...

Find out next time...

PS: An often overlooked detail about Urban Terror that I love is, of course, the ability to ledge-climb.

Edit: I'm taking about overall cohesion and reliability which produces consistency and integrity (which is arguably the most important value to be aware of when looking at/playing a game).

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 26 February 2017 - 05:17 AM