[Vortex2]

We don't need to kill TS, but if something works better I'm going to adapt whether I want to or not (at first glance).

Maybe if Team Survivor is replaced in competitive play, it can remain as a game type for 1v1s?

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 07 March 2017 - 06:41 AM

[Drkita]

I think TS it's a UrT fundamental gametype, because of urt physics it will never be camping like CS and games Luke that. So it shouldn't be killed. The urt appeal was in my opinion: fast gameplay and few fuss to take care of. Very arcadeish kind of fps. Now, if devs can keep the most of urt physics plus a better graphic engine, this game will Mick ass. Placing the game on steam will ne a nice move either,and we know that steam OS will make it easier for mac and linux players to check it out. Hope to see it soon in an alpha! And Hoping TS won't be forgot!

Edit: don't mind misspellings my phone isn't collaborating so much :D

This post has been edited by Drkita: 16 March 2017 - 12:01 PM

[efx|Alexdenton]

My 2 cents.

I don't like TS that much. Despite playing it a lot, I think CTF fits urt's movement features much better than TS.
That said, I don't think it should be removed and honestly I don't think FS is planning to remove it either.

It would be weird to erase the most played gametype since like 7 years, isn't it? :)

[FS Frankie V]

Alexdenton, on 16 March 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

That said, I don't think it should be removed and honestly I don't think FS is planning to remove it either.

It would be weird to erase the most played gametype since like 7 years, isn't it? :)

Actually :D

Unreal 4 is a universal edit environment that adapts well to modular designs where elements can be added as a plug in or environment entity.

For example using just blueprints I was able the modify the games behavior by adding a flag model turning the game type to CTF with no need for additional coding at the core game code level.

Better still

A level can and does have the ability to add a blueprint the would add the game type to just the level so map makers would have the ability to make their own unique game types.

P.S.

A heads up we have yet to decide what we should do about controlled distribution of maps containing blueprints as they are very powerful as to taking full control of the mandated mechanics in an abusive manner.

[karnute]

Frankie V, on 16 March 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

Unreal 4 is a universal edit environment that adapts well to modular designs where elements can be added as a plug in or environment entity.

I rely on FS developers will implement modular gametype modifiers. As I said some time ago, the gametypes should be splited in some aspects (controlled by independent cvars) that only affect a restricted part of the game organization. Like for example:

• Number of teams: 0 = all-vs-all, 1 = players against bots cooperative (skeet, training, zombies,...), 2 = usual teams, >2 (Mexican Standoff?), ...
  
• Spawn mode: 0 = continuous (fixed individual delay than can be 0), 1 = survivor rounds (wait till only one team survives to win the round), 2 = waves (timed team spawns), 3 = freeze (killed are frozen til thawn by time or faster by teammate), ...
  
• Number of rounds: -1 = indefinite (it can be for KnockOut mode, at round end remove 2 weakest players), 0 = unlimited repeat rounds until match time ends (survivor, etc), 1 = standard (each match is a round), 2 (for competitions when map is not symmetric to change sides), ...
  
• Objective (main game type): -1 = jump (score by timing to reach places), 0 = no objective (only kill enemies), 1 = follow the leader, 2 = capture and hold, 3 = capture the flag, 4 = bomb & defuse, 5 = carry item (points for holding time, it can be with or without teams), 6 = kill the king of the hill (kill player with highest points), ...
  
• Damage and Friendly fire: -1 = No damage (and no physical interaction), 0 = Team does NOT damage (only enemies damage), 1 = Team can DO damage with kick if excesive, 2 = Team can DO damage without kick, ....
  
• Death mode: 0 = standard (cumulated damage > 100% recovering by teammates healing), 1 = one hit (instant gib), 2 = cumulated damage > 100% without any healing, 3 = cumulated damage > 100% with automatic recovery by time, ...
  
• Guns restrictions: 0 = Special jump "guns" (laser pointer, paint marker and trail marker), 1 = normal (1 primary, 1 secondary, etc.), 2 = Gun game (only 1 gun, changing with each kill, ascending difficulty), 3 = only fixed gun (e.g. only SR8, or instagib gun), ...

So that any gametype can be defined by the combination of those cvars values or aspects controlling the game. The implementation of each aspect should be done in a module that only changes some things related to it and independently of the rest. Also more options can be added to each aspect. The map makers can define variations in the map only depending on some aspects affecting the map in any way (spwans positions, size or restricted areas, objective positions, etc) and ignoring the rest.

Maybe the possible addition of blueprints should be restricted only to the server admin by including some plugins (official or third party).

[KroniK]

Unfortunately, while that allows server owners to create many different combos, that is death for a new game with no real community.

That whole thing goes completely against my original post. Read that for a clear description of why.

I very much think that less is more when it comes to gametypes and keeping a community active, and is especially important when creating a new community around a game.

[Fredrik]

KroniK, on 22 March 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:

I very much think that less is more when it comes to gametypes and keeping a community active, and is especially important when creating a new community around a game.

Without checking, I'm pretty sure that CS, Overwatch and LoL had different maps/modes at launch and the games did a good job at developing it's "esport mode" organically.

Games likes to release with several options so the community can figure out what fits the game the most, but it does create a divide. If a game developer can predict the future than they will of course release the game with less modes.

However UrT is close to two decades old and while there are more mechanics to discover and we are still far away from figuring out the meta. We can be certain what our competetive/esport mode should be and that is CTF.

KroniK is absolutely right that we should narrow down the game modes pool.

[Valour]

Fredrik, on 22 March 2017 - 11:11 PM, said:

...We can be certain what our competetive/esport mode should be and that is CTF....

I agreed with everything you said before and after this statement.

Nobody can say with authority what will be 'the' competitive gametype.

That is to the number of participating players to determine, each person at a time.

I think there is, has been and always will be an appeal for Team Survivor both casually and competitively.

It will be interesting to see if additional game-modes such as Domination catch on and become popular as well... also, perhaps we may see Bomb grow in popularity, rather than being a loyalist's die-hard niche-gametype within a loyalist's die-hard niche game :P.

[Fredrik]

Bomb mode won't get any trajectory because of CS, so just forget about that.

Valour, on 23 March 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

I think there is, has been and always will be an appeal for Team Survivor both casually and competitively.

If you accept that it will be played very slow and still think it will offer something unique compared to other slow paced first person shooters than sure, but it kills our selling point by not utilizing the fast movement.

[Valour]

Fredrik, on 23 March 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

Bomb mode won't get any trajectory because of CS, so just forget about that.

Maybe

Fredrik, on 23 March 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

you accept that it will be played very slow and still think it will offer something unique compared to other slow paced first person shooters than sure, but it kills our selling point by not utilizing the fast movement.

:)

I have 2 important points I would like to make:

1) Team Survivor doesn't have to be played slow. Actually, well co-ordinated, planned and executed rushes can be used effectively and strategically based on available information, practice and instinct (or whim). Just as in Football or Basketball, the offensive and defensive distinction of a give/take relationship remains in-tact, as does (should) play-calling (or at least, basic co-ordination). But, this distinction must be recognized, and while what I'm describing would appear to be basic practical fps/tactical knowledge which applies in sport and most multiplayer games, I doubt that most people comprehend it's depth to the point of being aware of positional 'advantage' (logically) beacuse it can be a very subtle aspect of a very fast game which requires...again, co-ordination (of mind and body).

This recognition of the 'hidden' aspects/elements of the game may or may not be a part of it's 'indie' (or hipster) appeal at present (no shame in it), but given the growing number of FPS-smart players who may be joining us soon, I think most players will see and/or try to learn the difference between offense and defense rather quickly (in the context of each map)...and, I anticipate that especially in competition, there will be well co-ordinated efforts with less camping and more offense, simply beacuse a (perhaps REALLY) good offense is better than playing defensively (unless you catch someone trying to go up the crazy choke-point stairs leading to the massive balcony on Cambridge for some reason).

As in CS and all eSport games, Smart play is the key (use of sound, anticipation, awareness of probability etc.) Not to mention, I think everyone will probably naturally take the game much more seriously than at present as we may see the game evolve from the image of getting together for beers with your adult bowling team and enjoying the shit out of bowling into something more respected and more respectable... which, for certain mature people could perhaps even be viewed as an art-form. This is, instead of the image of company-softball.

2) Playing TS has made me into a better CTF player, and CTF has made me into a more confident TS player. Personally, at this stage, if I'm going to join a server and play... CTF may seem more attractive and fun, but if I want to get competitive, I will likely respect TS and spend the necessary time thinking, meditating and reflecting on various aspects of the game...preparing myself to perform at my personal best once again (Ip Man-style). Furthermore, I think it helps us and motivates us to really learn to accept our limitations, but also to appreciate what we can do with a 'single life', so to speak (enter art-form appeal).

A Team Survivor server can quickly become a fun atmosphere where players will drop in, hang out, test the waters and decide if it would be good practice to stay and spend some time playing. But, as far as the purpose it serves, I think an earlier level, TS helps each player to really figure out how the game works, by watching better/worse players who are doing things we like/don't like and consequently we gain a better sense of the necessary (basic) habits required to possess the ability for higher function required while thinking on your feet in clutch situations because of mental muscle-memory...so, practicing checking stamina and health when hit, for example along the way to becoming a better and more proficient player (who is having a better time).

Be honest, CTF public servers now are like, how we used to see TDM and FFA when we started playing CTF...am I right? It's either a situation where you wish you were scrimming because the matchup between players is arbitrary and you can't enjoy yourself unless you're mildly stoned or buzzing on coffee. Once you get into it though, despite risking hurting your competitive form, you literally choose between feeling like a heartless monster on a recentless killing spree (beating up children at a nursery) or Neo from The Matrix. Either way, TS is better for you if you want to 'get better' and/or 'be good'.

And then...competitive CTF isn't even fun unless you're doing well. Actually it can be downright scary af unless you've prepared and your team has set roles and you have an idea of what's happening at all (most) times and you're staying connected. Otherwise, we experience this sensation of a gap in skill and consequently this 'divide' which was spoken of... between 'competitive' and 'non-competitive', but the reality is that each player is progressing and growing in their own unique way and like-minded people are going to be the examples for them whether it is in a public server or a match-setting. Because 'competitive' can be split again and again and endlessly divided and in the end, all we're doing is making labels which only apply as a matter of opinion.

I think ultimately, the answer is to just accept that with more good teams who are taking the game seriously and truly practicing, the spirit of playing UrT will carry us to new heights.

This post has been edited by Valour: 23 March 2017 - 07:24 AM