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Money in Team Survivor?

#1 User is offline   Vortex2 Icon

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 05:07 PM

What do we think about implementing the option for a money/buy system in Team-Survivor?

Could this become another gamemode?

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 28 February 2017 - 01:20 AM


#2 User is offline   KroniK Icon

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 07:59 PM

Ok, can someone give me a TLDR here because Its going to be a few days before I will ever have the time to read all of that...

#3 User is offline   Vortex2 Icon

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 08:36 PM

View PostKroniK, on 27 February 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Ok, can someone give me a TLDR here because Its going to be a few days before I will ever have the time to read all of that...


Yeah, sorry about that. I got carried away :happy:

#4 User is offline   Zmb Icon

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 11:56 PM

No thanks. Ain't CounterStrike.

#5 User is offline   Vortex2 Icon

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 04:39 PM

View PostZmb, on 28 February 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

No thanks. Ain't CounterStrike.

Could you elaborate on what you mean please?

Are you saying, in your mind, that Counter-Strike has reserved rights to exclusive physical phenomena in video games such as:

  • Shooting through walls
  • Using money to reward effective performance which in turn makes the entire game more meaningful
  • Having a buy menu
  • Making use of a wider range of guns which allows for a more diverse competitive meta
  • Utilizing the concept of roles in a more complex way than "K, I'm medicing" or "I have a SR8, I guess I'm a sniper or something"

If so, why?

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 01 March 2017 - 04:55 PM


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#6 User is offline   YAY5637 Icon

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 06:13 PM

I really like the consequence of money in CS.
In every competitive game theres different weapons beeing used and with this theres varying strategies over the rounds.

The problem is that some rounds just have a very slim chance of success, which is nice if you can win them, but not in the other 95%.
The mirrored availability of items in UrT makes the game always dependent on skill and not on how you did the round before.

But what about mirrored loadout restrictions? Not having a primary for one round, only pistols, just a primary with no gear or nades.
That would have the same effect in a fair way.
Although there would have to be time to switch around your loadout before every round and thats a big thing, when strattime is already really annoying to some people.
Just a quick thought ;)

#7 User is offline   Vortex2 Icon

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 07:18 PM

View PostYAY5637, on 01 March 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

I really like the consequence of money in CS.

I'm glad that you, too, can appreciate the added value it brings to the experience of play by allowing for there to be more variance which introduces a distinct 'soft'-pattern to the existing meta of the game which could really challenge players to stay strong and try their best to win each round despite circumstances as they may be.

View PostYAY5637, on 01 March 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:


In every competitive game theres different weapons beeing used and with this theres varying strategies over the rounds.


Yeah, I'm not very familiar with playing competitive Counter-Strike at the highest peak level, but I imagine that even for the most advanced players and coaches, there are enough options and variables at a given time to prevent over-reliance on anticipation of the opposing team's strat-call prior to the round beginning.

I think that CS can be a more interesting game to watch sometimes, precisely because there are so many options and variables which affect gameplay throughout the match, as CS has more depth than UrT in this regard strictly in terms of the critical thought required in regard to the current meta throughout the game.

I think one of the main things we need to focus on if Urban Terror is going to be respected as a great FPS game is shifting focus away from it being a 'Deathmatch Game' or 'A Quake Mod' and helping players and critics to appreciate that Urban Terror is its' own game and furthermore, that it's a very unique experience which is, as I say, perhaps holding the potential to become 'CS-Evolved' (as all of the aspects of tactical shooters remain in-tact with the added element of well, UrT game physics) or 'the next-level FPS experience' everyone will be talking about for ages.

View PostYAY5637, on 01 March 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:


The problem is that some rounds just have a very slim chance of success, which is nice if you can win them, but not in the other 95%.


If one team ever really does have an advantage over the other, I think it often comes as the result of determining what the enemy team is trying to do as their strategy is exposed one opposing player at a time, which takes place, of course, for both teams simultaneously, rather than the awareness of which guns are in play and the load out each team may or may not be able to afford. Winning eco-rounds is not unheard of, especially in high-level play... is it?

View PostYAY5637, on 01 March 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:


The mirrored availability of items in UrT makes the game always dependent on skill and not on how you did the round before.


I've noticed that there is no real 'out-of-control' snowballing in CS, so long as players are able to maintain their collectedness, be calm, and measured and stay cool... I'm not sure that 95% is an accurate stat, as I've seen someone take down 3 players with a MAG, and I have also seen some unreal play with the scout and successive 1deags and even some great USP plays which can result in picking up an AK or M4 or Awp after defeating an opponent who forget to check a corner or simply as the result of holding a tough angle... so there are definitely ways to compensate and I don't think one side is really 'in the hole' so to speak (for more than a couple rounds) unless they spend their money unwisely.

My only criticism of the way CS matches are played is when CTs seem to have a clear advantage in a close match and end up winning 10 rounds in a row which puts a lot of pressure on the other team to perform when they switch sides and the T side now only needs to win 4 rounds or something...so it may seem like not all of those 10 rounds were earned by pure individual skill. Perhaps, this may also present an imbalance in having the ability to play a certain way (changing play style accordingly, as a football team would 'run down the clock'). This, for me, eats away at the ideal of the game which is to perform as close to perfectly as possible.

Knowing and sensing intuitively that the game isn't balanced definitely takes away from playing and is distracting when acknowledged. However, I think the dissatisfaction which may come from CS in this regard is primarily because of the distinction of T/CT rather than the buy-system and money...

Another thing I've noticed in Counter-Strike is that effective objective management can lead to a lightning-quick shift in the momentum of the game at a given point in time due to CT being a disadvantage simply because the player MUST move to the bomb or else lose the round, causing an offensive/defensive role-reversal as the T side is now able to hide and play defensively after infiltrating the bomb-site. Which is interesting, beacuse it's (planting the bomb) 'a move'... and it's just pushing a button (lol).

I think we need to ask the question, would money effectively 'un-balance' the game, or could it 'enhance' the game by displaying the very same fundamental mirror-balance by allowing the game itself to become more complex as it builds/progresses? Is this something we can even visualize or would it need to be implemented and play-tested?

Generally speaking, in Urban Terror, because players can move quickly (and walljump and powerslide), gameplay may seem more interesting, as it would appear that more seems to be happening around the map (and of course, it's faster).

This is especially prevalent when an extraordinary player with high individual ability and skill can inexplicably find a way to compensate for a defeceit for a given point in time (creating a big play out of thin air)... we see this in clutches and in instances where someone kicks into gear and blows our minds as they are able to take down 3 opponents at a critical/pivotal moment or juncture because of sharp wit, effective preparation or just, well... because... Watch This (FF to 2:08)... Note Play#38, the announcer, that's how I feel all the time when I watch a player make an explosive play in a close match. (Basketball seems pretty balanced, too) ... which, for me, in UrT is more special than in CS because more is possible.

It's always fun to see a good player do great things consistently in CS. However, after someone has learned the game, this may quickly appear to just be a matter of physics... and if we compare the physics of CS to the physics of UrT, I think we will see more is possible. Each ply seems to be quite unique rather than being a matter of quick-peeking and landing the same old shot or using the map in an advantageous way by being aware of a certain angle.

Also, because there is no global pressure of an objective, the final moments of a round often come down to an intense 'dog-fight' (think of the image of two fighter-planes) rather than a potentially one-sided showdown where players may or may not take advantage of their surroundings (post-plant) and land their shots.

Also, very often in UrT, in addition to following a methodical step-progression, a player must juggle the elements of bunny hopping (circlejumping) around, thinking about possibly wall-jumping and taking damage in a calculated way (based on experience) which affects his stamina... so positioning is tricky. And, in Team Survivor, beacuse there is no meta-objective which has a 'global' effect on the mind of the players at a given point in time, UrT is faster, requires more skill and overall feels 'cleaner' or purer than gameplay in CS.

However, if competitive UrT TS is going to be respected and viewed in the same way as competitive UrT CTF rather than being seen as a slightly unnatural mutation or as 'decelerated deathmatch', I think adding money into the mix is only going to help...

For example, I was thinking that if players only had so much money/currency such that they could afford certain weapons and items, there could be more reason to incorporate a situational strategy of employing a distinct role such as, perhaps, maybe a volunteer 'scout' whose role is to play without a Kevlar and maybe with a silencer, so that he can get into enemy territory to gather information for his team. After reaching a special/hidden spot and holding there (perhaps being able to do some damage and even take down an opponent) before being spotted and heavily damaged and/or defeated unless the player is able to remain/stay undetected or react/be quick enough to escape to safety.

In this regard, we can incorporate the interesting aspect of MOBA games and classic titles like Diablo by adding special meaning for each item, perhaps providing synergy between certain items/weapons and all in the context of available money/currency which is earned accordingly... The only real issue I see is finding a balanced and true-tested way to distribute the money and ensuring that there is never a serious deficit for either team where they feel 'stuck' or without enough for a stretch of rounds, resulting in a play experience where someone experiences a serious imbalance. UrT may be the only game capable of implementing a buy-system in such a way.

In present meta, a close TS match-up consists of 10 players and presently, straying from the typical 5v5 kevlar/helmet/laser with a medic and maybe a SR8 would seem like a good way to lose a round... so in this regard, while the availability of weapons/items is one less thing to be concerned about, it perhaps 'oversimplifies' the game by essential forcing the same load-out which defeats the purpose of having the ability to select items in the first place.

Also, because weapons and items are not something players are thinking about (and appreciating) each round, it could perhaps turn the 'perfect mirror balance' against the game itself and spoil this aspect of being an FPS... Personally, I don't play Counter-Strike, but I imagine that a big part of the enjoyment comes as the result of feeling a greater sense of satisfaction and appreciation when a better gun is earned (temporarily).

Idk how it would work out, but maybe we could have it set up so that worst case scenario, it would be even more forgiving than the present money system in CS:GO.

View PostYAY5637, on 01 March 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:


But what about mirrored loadout restrictions? Not having a primary for one round, only pistols, just a primary with no gear or nades.
That would have the same effect in a fair way.
Although there would have to be time to switch around your loadout before every round and thats a big thing, when strattime is already really annoying to some people.
Just a quick thought ;)


Yeah, that might be really cool. If players could have preset load-outs and possibly co-ordinate with teammates to select personally calibrated builds, which could involve the idea of planning ahead to select one which is appropriate to fit the situation... Almost like a pitcher selecting his 'pitch' each round and throwing it. :)

Plus the necessity of practicing different builds and knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each and how they fit into what your team is doing and what the other team might be trying.

In summary:

UrT with money: Complexifies meta, potentially more strategy involved, use of more guns, motivation to be versatile as a player and to develop a unique personalized skill-set and role in competitive-play context.

Each player could feel like a renegade building and playing in their own unique way/style which is how they play and practice... and develop a reputation in terms of character for being able to fill a specific role for a team.

UrT without money: Totally balanced (mirrored) everything is totally based in indivudal player ability and choices... nothing else.

However, the game may appear to be 'too simple' (despite being really fun and perfectly balanced and entirely based on player ability) and players may lose interest as the result of failing to recognize a long-term plan for playing aside from getting 'better' and 'faster' without really learning much in the way of strategy or planning ahead...

It would be a real tragedy if Urban Terror was initially popular before eventually returning to the state it's in now... where there are many people who appreciate the game (at least 5-10 from each country :P) but many who don't play it, because... other people don't play it... ???

So why aren't people playing Urban Terror right now if we all recognize that it's such a great game? What is it, like an amusement park attraction? Or a monument? Why isn't it a sport?

Final Conclusion:
The way the game is played requires map awareness and figuring out/learning and knowing how to react appropriately in the present moment, except there's almost no time to communicate (unless the pace of the match is made slower)... so as in basketball, there is a greater responsibility for each player to just know what they're doing and to be independent. :)
\
I realize that UrT can be seen as perfectly balanced and totally reliant on individual play and then co-ordination, as is the case for most, if not all team-sports.

But... I think we need to really ask: are we taking full advantage of the possibilities for competitive match-play or are we dishonouring the potential for competitive play by accepting it as 'just a really well-made deathmatch game'?

My only hope in writing this post is to simply ask the UrT community to consider that using money/currency needn't necessarily come with imbalance...right? I could be wrong.

I leave you with this question:
Is there a way to implement it and do we think it could be an option for competitive play? Or would it make the game less than what it is now?

Keeping in mind that all of the things that make UrT great will remain intact.

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 04 March 2017 - 05:46 PM


#8 User is offline   Iye Icon

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 12:07 AM

So yeah. I said i wanted to do a post on this anyways, i guess you quite possibly said everything i wanted to point out. However i have not read any of this huge post by Vortex2, apart from the summary downwards :)

Also, before i dwell into the topic, let me answer that first part of the first question:

View PostVortex2, on 01 March 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

Is there a way to implement it and do we think it could be an option for competitive play? Or would it make the game less than what it is now?

I recall Frankie saying very recently that ultimately gamemodes may be added as contributions by the community, based on UE4s modularity.


Now lets get right into it:

What does money in CS actually do?

It connects rounds. The outcome of one round is connected to the further rounds. Not only by winning or loosing, but also by performance. If you win a round with nobody left alive, that's possibly bad. You may just be out of money, and your loss-bonus (since that's a thing) is reset.

Is there a connection between rounds in UrT?
Yes, and no. Basically it depends on whether you are playing on rounds or on time. If you are playing on rounds (like in CS, there is none). If you are playing on time, the time each round takes can either be good or bad for you, depending on whether you are winning or not. Basically drawing out a round is an advantage if you are winning. And drawing out a round is obviously easier than forcing it.

Would a connection between rounds make sense in UrT?
Maybe. I'm actually still unsure about this. I dont like playing on time, maybe because if "feels" wrong from watching CS, maybe because im used to playing bomb on rounds. Sure it adds a layer of strategic planning to it, but only at a higher competitive level. This is quite interesting, however not the main focus of CS. Its still all about good round tactics and planning. That is why you can still win an eco round. As i said, im really unsure if UrT "needs" such a system.

Could money do it?
Possibly. Though it would feel kind of "stolen" from CS. Personally, i would vote for snipers and primary autos having the same kill reward. With how slow CS is the AWP is really powerfull. But with how fast UrT is, the sr8 often turns out to be a "hit or die" weapon. My major problem with money however are "ecos", or more generally speaking rounds where you can not choose the weaponize you want. That goes against what defines UrT for me.

Are there other ways to tie rounds together or award round performace?
Sure! a score system could: In round based modes we would not only award a simple round victory, but also, to a lesser degree kills and objectives.
As an example:
5 points per win,
5 points for a primary objective, (plant, prevent the plant, defuse)
3 points for a secondary objective (win) (kill them all, even though its bomb mode)
1 point per kill,
I think i would prefer this to money, for reasons stated above. Sure, it doesnt give you a direct link between rounds, but you can still play for those "max points", instead of just trying to buy time.
Sorry for my bad spelling - I am still asleep. :)

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#10 User is offline   Drkita Icon

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 12:15 PM

High! First of all thanks for the work you're doing for us. I know it's my first post but the hype is growing since i discovered that urt is not dead again after 12yrs!! Do you think you'll put in game the option for speaking during a game like in other games? Sorry for the OT, but i didn't want to open up a new thread about this.

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