[[T]BludShoT]

I don't think it's a problem regarding "not knowing what type of game you're connecting to" (wave with tk penalty or not). If it's a pub, then it's no different than friendly fire. You join a pub, you shoot your own player in the course of playing and you realize which it is. And then if you don't like the setting, you leave or deal with it.

Ideally there would *always* be friendly fire turned on, because no FF is a joke. But the option exists, and you quickly find out, or you know of regular servers and which setting they use.

So the same would be true of this setting. However, I'd even be in favor of it being a match-mode only setting, because on pubs it could just add to the abuse (when you tk someone they not only get tked by you but they have an extra long respawn time). So that would solve your concerns about not knowing what setting a pub has.

And when it comes to a match, you know what config your league uses, so no problem there either.

We have options for alternate TS scoring systems too, they don't do any harm. If my suggestion was added, then it would allow people to try out this other style of wave - if they even felt like trying it - and see first hand what it plays like. And maybe it gains a small following or maybe it doesn't. I think the good thing about it for people like BK and Raider would be that at least the game contains wave they way they intended it to be, and then instead of people making hypothetical arguments about it there could be some real world game play.

To me the mechanic is similar to knocking your own net off the pegs in hockey, so I'm not a fan. It's also virtually identical to, in non-wave CTF, subbing out a player who is in the enemy zone (or almost dead, etc), and then subbing someone else in so they can immediately spawn in your base - something that is illegal in non-wave and so requires the player to /kill to avoid penalty. The only reason I didn't suggest completely changing wave to eliminate the exploit, wasn't because I don't think it's clearly better, it's because I know that tons of people like it the way it is now and there's just no way you could change it without alienating all of them.

Also, please understand that even though I think it's an undesirable game mechanic, I'm not saying people who use it are cheap. You should use it, it's part of the game. There's nothing cheap about playing the game the way the game design suggests and demands you play it to your best advantage.


PS: People should start playing more non-wave. It is a fun, interesting, and exciting game type with unique challenges that just aren't in wave. I guarantee I've played a lot more league wave than a bunch of you have played non-wave.

This post has been edited by BludShoT: 15 December 2012 - 10:04 PM

[diRf!Nikki]

Reflux, on 15 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Not true. You have no idea until after joining that a server has friendly fire on or off, gravity set to 800 or not, what weapons are allowed or not. There are plenty of server side conditions that already exist in the game that you are not aware of until you join, begin playing, and then ask, "Is **** on?"

If you click "server info" in the master list, you can see what a lot of settings are including friendly fire. Not saying you can see every last cvar but some of the information is there if you look.

Reflux, on 15 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Bomb is TS, but with an alternate objective that far too many ignore. You win by eliminating the other team, not by detonating the bomb. Smells like TS to me.

Meh, I've always called bomb "TS with an objective" as well but I wont say it's played exactly like TS. Maybe on pubs it's a bit more like TS but you can still take out the whole red team and not win the round if the bombs planted and you don't have time to defuse. So it's a little bit more than just "eliminate the other team".

Good comparison with the wave to non-wave though.

This post has been edited by Nikki: 15 December 2012 - 10:55 PM

[)O,O(Swaggzilla]

I think we should make a cvar that will penalize teams that /kill in Team Survivor to relieve time constraints.

In CTF wave, by killing your teammate, or killing yourself with a nade you're doing the same thing as teams that /kill in TS when they need the time. As far as I know, Europeans and Americans alike use this tactic when the game clock is low and they're only down by a few rounds and the other team is attempting to waste time.

See where I'm going with this? I am North American, Canadian to be exact, and I have played non-wave CTF for a number of years prior to wave. I always thought non-wave to be a superior gametype, that is until I actually played wave CTF at a high level. I can say that a thoroughly enjoy playing both, as both bring different aspects of the game to life where the other fails.

Non-Wave requires a lot of thinking, to the point where you second guess yourself a lot, but team play is a big factor in capturing your opponents flag. That is not to say that wave does not require thinking or team play, it certainly does, but at a different pace. Wave CTF requires extremely fast reaction speeds, requires efficiency and aim and VERY quick thinking, which was a HUGE learning curve for me when I first started playing wave.

Both game types are fun and difficult in their own way and one should not be changed in my opinion. I understand that bloodshot is suggesting that a cvar should be made to give the players the option, but I really don't see a point. If that's what people want, go for it, but I think adding cvars to make a wave more like non-wave is silly. Good luck.

[[T]BludShoT]

Speaking of that, I actually do want /kill to be penalized in Follow The Leader (it needs to be, I just didn't bring it up yet since it's so low priority) since it affects the score.

And now that you mention it, that is a similarly exploitative tactic in TS. Same as in wave, I have no problem with people using it in TS, they should, it's part of the game. But should it be part of the game? What legitimate use does /kill actually have in league TS?? Aside from trying to game the clock/score, is there any reason to have /kill in the game in matchmode?

As far as I understand it, /kill was put into quake 1 as almost like a dev command so if you got stuck in an unfinished or poorly made map you could remedy that. But we shouldn't be playing maps like that. And you can sub out and in or reconnect for that effect. I don't remember a single time in a match in the last 3 years that anyone actually needed to /kill.

So I think swagg has a point, and that we should remove /kill from match mode all together. Then you don't need to penalize it.

[GlaD-don]

Swaggzilla, on 16 December 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Non-Wave requires a lot of thinking, to the point where you second guess yourself a lot, but team play is a big factor in capturing your opponents flag. That is not to say that wave does not require thinking or team play, it certainly does, but at a different pace. Wave CTF requires extremely fast reaction speeds, requires efficiency and aim and VERY quick thinking, which was a HUGE learning curve for me when I first started playing wave.

Wave is brainless, end of story. Each spawn can reset the game. You do not have to control anything or think beyond the 14 second (or whatever) timer. TKing actually makes the game more involved by requiring you to make decisions like whether to have an extra gun to try to facilitate an escape or try to get someone full stamina for defense/intercept. Removing the TK is an attempt to reduce the power of the respawn=reset, but the fundamentally flawed aspects of wave are not changed. I know you're agreeing that a cvar isn't a good idea, but you are also defending a wave.:P ps, no euros I've played in wave (talking div 1 here btw) were concerned with efficient killing. They simply ran for the flag and ran out. The game was reduced to jumping fast.

tking is the one part of wave that requires some thinking. it's in the best interest of the game to ensure it's always allowable.







Also, how on earth can getting tked be seen as something that should be punished? If wave is as frantic as Swaggzilla says it is, accidental tking will obviously result. SKIPPING a respawn is a worse punishment than occurs in non-wave CTF, where you simply receive the respawn. When a tk occurs, your opponent can push with more players during the next spawn period. I admit that actually introduces a modicum of strategic thinking to the gametype (as well as paying attention to something besides the timer), so i'm kinda conflicted lol:P
I understand you wanting to remove the tking aspect, even if I disagree, but I fail to see how this improves wave CTF in any way. Obviously wave players like the speed, and having to be extra careful about tking doesn't help, nor does forcing the affected team to choose pure defense for 1 wave. I also fail to understand why it's an important issue, as you do not play wave ctf, and one of the attractions of FTWGL is that it still uses non-wave CTF. I feel like this cvar would be as used as the bomb rules cvar. Yeah, look at all the people who know what I'm talking about when I mention that! lol. Or the TS option that gives the win to the team with more players standing. There's nothing wrong with more cvars, but I think you're overestimating how much this would benefit anyone.

BludShoT, on 16 December 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

And now that you mention it, that is a similarly exploitative tactic in TS. Same as in wave, I have no problem with people using it in TS, they should, it's part of the game. But should it be part of the game? What legitimate use does /kill actually have in league TS?? Aside from trying to game the clock/score, is there any reason to have /kill in the game in matchmode?

As far as I understand it, /kill was put into quake 1 as almost like a dev command so if you got stuck in an unfinished or poorly made map you could remedy that. But we shouldn't be playing maps like that. And you can sub out and in or reconnect for that effect. I don't remember a single time in a match in the last 3 years that anyone actually needed to /kill.

So I think swagg has a point, and that we should remove /kill from match mode all together. Then you don't need to penalize it.

Swaggzilla, on 16 December 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

In CTF wave, by killing your teammate, or killing yourself with a nade you're doing the same thing as teams that /kill in TS when they need the time. As far as I know, Europeans and Americans alike use this tactic when the game clock is low and they're only down by a few rounds and the other team is attempting to waste time.

/kill is a tactical gamble, but really, /kill is just a way to hasten the loss of the round. You give your opponent +1 in score to escape an obviously doomed round, but you try to win the next 2 rounds quickly to gain the lead or a tie. Or maybe 3 rounds, but that rarely works out; if you're down by more than 1 point, the opponent has 2 chances to succeed at stalling/drawing the clock out. /kill is as legitimate part of the game as is circle/strafe jumping (another unintended feature). Besides, you can just tk eachother (last man standing has to bleed) or jump off something; every map has a sufficiently high drop to eventually lead to death. Or run into the enemy. /kill saves just a few seconds, and is hardly as important as TKing in wave.











Suggestion:
Separate g_gametype #s for wave ctf and non-wave CTF. g_gametype 6 and 7 or something. It would also solve the weird issues you get with wave when enabling it half-way through a map, by instead forcing a restart! It might be nice to have abbreviations work for the gametypes as well. e.g., g_gametype tdm, cah, ftl, etc. or maybe that was already added, but w/e.

[[T]BludShoT]

I never said this was an important issue, nor did I estimate that a lot of people would benefit from it. I don't consider it important. But I wouldn't mind running a wave competition sometime, but not with this tking stuff. The effort to add this little cvar would probably be less then half the combined effort of the writing of all the posts in this thread :p

if g_waveTKpenalty is turned on
if player dies
if player.team == killer.team
then apply /kill respawn penalty on player.

[SilverFoxZ]

F2 keep it how it is for the reasons others already mentioned :3

[Critofur]

Why was this god awful mode (Wave) introduced in the first place?

It basically takes away everything I love about CTF, both why I prefer it over TDM and why I prefer it over TS.

Yes, Wave adds some "complexity" - but it's the sort of monotonous repetitive complexity that makes factory jobs good for robots. IMO Wave mode takes so much away from CTF and is terribly distracting from what made CTF fun in the first place.

The reason I see for *some* players preferring Wave is that they hate being beaten by players they perceive as inferior - they want to be able to rely on their superior aim and lighting fast lizard-like reflexes to beat all opponents, whereas, those of us who are a little slower and can't aim quite as well, have learned to rely on tactics and strategy to beat such opponents including, but not limited to: "game awareness" where we develop an almost ESP like sense of where opponents are on the map w/o being able to see them, wounding the enemy, then intentionally letting them kill us, so that they are low health, but we respawn at full health (yes, this is just as offensive as the intentional TKing prevalent in Wave), patience, and sneaking about/camping/finding spots on the map where people won't normally look, so that we can make a clutch flag return just as the enemy thought they were about to cap, etc...

Yes, the "cat is out of the bag", so, I suppose it's too late to "fix" the habits of players who use the TK exploit to respawn their full team every 15 seconds, and it's almost moot anyway, as the community has shrunk so much - at this point, I wouldn't want to do anything that would drive away anymore of the few remaining active players...

This post has been edited by Critofur: 22 December 2019 - 05:03 AM