[shoushou]

Hey guys,

I created this thread to make a discussion about weapons balance in Urban Terror. By weapon balance, I mean how to organize/modernize/correct/keep weapons or items in order to have a maximum of different weapons that are useful (in order to win), that don’t slow the game and if possible that increase it speed (by giving an advantage to fast gameplay). Actually, we can say (and I’ll prove it) that the weapons aren’t balanced, are some of them just can’t be used (because the others are much more powerful).

First point before we start, I won’t talk about the new system introduced by the beta. First because it will change all weapon balance if its applied, and secondly because it will slow down the game. I already explained it in the appropriate topic, and I won’t talk about it there. So all the points I make are for the actual 4.2.x version.

Second point, there is a main thing to understand before we start. When we talk about weapons balance, it necessary imply to talk about high skill competition. Because in order to talk about balance, we have to based on players who played that game for years, are good with it, mastered most of the weapons (the result on a top player automatic vs a top player sniper is interesting in terme of balance, it’s not if the players are not at good level yet), but that’s not all. It also need to be relied on competition because competition is the only place when people have a reason to win, and so they have a real reason to play the way they think is the most effective. Who care if I play a HK69 on a public server ? If I can use it in high level competition and be good with it, the weapon is good, else it’s bad, but you’ll only know once it’s done in competitions. In order to have a decent stats base on 4.2 weapon balance, I recorded close to all the TS matchs done in D1-level or similar that have been done since the introduction of 4.2 in competitions (it includes 340 maps played right now). The datas are consequent enough to be representative and to give a fair idea of how the weapons are used. Can be found there : http://shourt.fr/Base . The metagame of BM is the same, I’ll give approximations of CTF since I could not made stats of it.

Well, my first statement done, let’s start with an otherview of how weapons are used :

First of all, for those who are not used to competition, here are some easy things before we start :
Competitions matchs are played 5v5.
Every player at high level play with both Kevlar and Helmet (as usual, some exceptions can be count with your fingers).
The players who play with autos are a majority (more than 90% in TS, 99.9% in CTF). They use their main rifle weapon, their pistol, Kevlar, Helmet, and then complete it with a Medkit / a Laser / HE Grenades, depending how they play and their team tactics.
The players who played with Sniper have as well a secondary automatic, a pistol, Kevlar and Helmet.
And that’s all.

And that’s how those weapons are used to make kills in TS :



Some interesting facts to notice :
As mentioned, most of the kills are done with the Main Rifles (LR300, M4, G36 and AK103). The combo Sniper + Secondary represent less than 10%. It’s also interesting to notice that grenades do most kills than DE / Secondary / Snipers. What’s the main interpretation we can do ? Out of the 10 players in a match (5v5 matchs), less than 1 use the sniper. That’s really low amount, and we’ll see why later.



Ok, let’s start more in the details with an important point, a weapon that every player use in the game, the pistols.

Short story on the pistols : Back in 4.1, we had only 2 pistols, Deagle and Beretta. Kinda everybody used the Deagle, while Beretta was used for trolling. With the HD alpha, we had the presentation of a later to come Magnum 44, which could have been a good alternative (powerfull weapon, long time between each ammo), but it was never introduced. But we had the Glock and the Colt who were add. Ok, that’s how these pistols are used in 4.2 in order to kill :



That’s mostly the same repartition in CTF/BM.

Explanation : With the 4.2, the DE is still used more than any others pistols. Worse : most of the players who used the others pistols do it in order to troll their opponent (when they have won the match, and it isn’t finish yet), even if there is a few players that use it as their “main pistol”, but as usual, exception that can be counted with fingers.
Now there are 2 things to understand : how the pistols has been balanced until now, and when are the pistols used during match. Pistols were made and balanced by that princip : if I had ammo and decrease damages, it’s balanced, all the pistols have been constructed with that rule. Pistols are used once players have already used their main rifle (or secondary weapons for snipers) and can’t reload, or when they are really low hp and need fast heavy damages (and the DE is more powerful that any Rifle in the game). In any of those situations, you have to understand that what you need with the pistol is the most powerful possible (as long as they are all accurate enough, which is our case) : we don’t need more than 7 bullets, because after 7 bullets, we or our opponents are dead, simple as that, what we need is to give maximum of damages with the time we have, which is usually less than the time to fire 7 times. That’s why everybody use the DE, because the others weapons are less powerful useless copies.

How to solve it / Proposed solution :
The solution should be to align the Head/Helmet damages for every pistols on the Deagle ones (66% on helmet, 100% on head actually). Actually, with DE, players aim for the Kevlar, because that’s the way you get more hits/shots. Aiming for the Helmet with only 7 bullets is harder (because of the game speed) and usually don’t give satisfaction, no matter how skilled you are. But if you have 15 bullets to try it, it changes, and the others pistols become valuable, without being others powerful. It’s truly the best solution in order to balance the pistols, but (I talked about it with psychorunner) it’s not realistic because weapons don’t use same caliber. I honestly don’t care about that “but”.



Ok, let’s switch to the Main Rifles :

Short description before : LR300 and M4 are mostly the same, dispersion differs a little as one of them is more vertical when the other. G36 fires slowly but have a zoom. AK103 have more dispersion with higher damages (not that much higher). Ok, it’s how these weapons are used in 4.2 :



That’s mostly the same for BM as well. G36 might me a little more used in CTF.

Let’s interpret it : LR300 and M4 are the most used, they can deal great damages at short/mid distance, still can be usable at long distance. People used the ones they prefer, it often happen that players switch for one to another (can be checked on my website). G36 is the most used weapon when your position implies that you’ll have to take some long range view : in some maps, like Austria, that’s the most used weapon. We can say those three weapons are balances with each others, they complete each others. But the AK103 as too much dispersion : it’s useless at long distance, still not that much at mid distance, and not better than others autos at short distance : it need “taptap”
(semiauto like) playing style, and the damages done for that aren’t great enough, it’s not worth enough.

How to solve it / Proposed solution :
Reducing the AK103 dispersion would be no sense : if you do it you just create a most powerfull LR300, and break the balance. If you reduce both the dispersion and the damage, you create a LR300 copy, that’s useless. The solution is to create an other type of weapon, that use the actual dispersion of AK103 and encourage the taptap style : you put the Helmet damages to 100%. With that solution, AK103 become the only Rifle with a 100% shot. With that, you have a change to use it usefully, but the dispersion doesn’t allow you to spray like an idiot in order to get a helmet deadly shot. It’s aim skill praised, and it doesn’t break the balance.



That done, let’s switch to a more complicated case, the snipers.

There are 2 snipers in Urban Terror : the SR8 and the PSG1. Traditionally, in TS, when I started the game, nobody used the PSG1, and every top teams were used to play with 1 or 2 snipers, depending of the maps, teams and confidence of the moment. The Count team won the OC by using the 2 best snipers in the game at that moment (Domino/pg) who carried them to victory. But on 4.2, that’s not something possible, because of some changes :
Hitcode remake, making it harder for snipers to get kills on a moving opponent. Don’t misunderstand me, that’s a good thing to have the hitmesh on the opponent, but it explained why it is harder now.
The introduction of the Groin/Butt Hitzone, which is not 100% damages, and so reduced the “Dead Zone” of the SR8.
Improvement of autos teamplays/tactics at high levels other the years, with much more organized rushes, make it harder for SR8.
Close part to the PSG1, and why it’s not used : as long as a Sniper as a position to keep by himself, usually long range for obvious reason, he has to keep it alone. Examples of these long range positions can me Market/Timbers Alley on Casa, Tunnel on Austria … The main problem is that the Deadly Zone of the PSG1 is only the Helmet. If you battle a SR8 in a long range sniper duel, then it’s useless, you can’t kill him without a helmet, as he’s gonna be healed after each shot you get (same for you, but the deadzone of the SR8 is larger). Versus an auto, that’s the same, you won’t have chance to fire more than 1/2 bullets before he come close, that’s useless. That’s why nobody use it, except for trolling.

So here are how the snipers are used in 4.2 :




No surprises. It’s the same in BM, snipers are simply not used in CTF for obvious reasons, except for trolling.

The explanation has been done before, so how can we correct it and make those 2 weapons usefull ?
SR8 first, here is the solution :
Groin/Butt zone to 100% Damages
No Penalty movement for SR8 while sliding/moving.
Bullets can hits more than one guy. If more than one players is in the bullet trajectories, then more than one is touched (that means in theory you can get as many kills as opponents players with one bullets) : it will give snipers an advantage at long distance lines, it proves his efficiency on CS.
Having a fixed unbug dezoom : once you get shot in the arms, it unzooms.
Having a fixed aimpunch : if you get shot, your crosshair goes higher.

PSG1 then :
increase the fire speed (time to wait between 2 bullets) to 40% more as it is actually.
Having a fixed unbug dezoom : once you get shot in the arms, it unzooms.
Having a fixed aimpunch : if you get shot, your crosshair goes higher.
Keep penalty movement as it is right now for PSG1.

With that, snipers become more usefull, both can be used, and the balance is on.



And let’s continue, once again, with the secondary weapons.

Let’s make it simple : those weapons are used to complete snipers. They permits their user to participate in team rushes, and to be effective once the opponent managed to get close to him. UMP45 and MP5K are the most used one, depending on how you like to play you’ll chose one or another (if you have many close range fight you’ll chose UMP, and vice versa). SPAS is useless because of low damages, same for MAC11 (for MAC11, read again the part again pistols, it’s the same problem).

It’s how these weapons are used :



Proposed solutions :

I want to keep in simple : I don’t see any way to do the MAC11 a different AND useful weapon. And I don’t care, because there is no need or any reason to have a third “auto secondary”, it was never asked, and it’s no use. Of course, there is no reason to delete it, but keep it as it is : a useless troll weapon. Because there is no way of making it a good and different weapon.
The SPAS is a way more difficult case to deal with. As long as it stays like it is, ie many bullets that goes in different direction, then there is no way to make it a balanced weapon. Because the damages, no matter how they are set, will be too low for mid range play (making the weapon useless), or too high for short range (and that will encourage the camp). A good solution should be to make a no dispersion SPAS, with « one bullet » hit, like a Railgun, but with damages depending on the distance and the location of the hit. Else it's no way to try to balance it, and it'll still as it is, a troll weapon.


One second only on the Negev and the HK69 : trolls weapons that should stay troll weapons without any changes.


Ok, last part on the items, and especially on grenades.
Actually, as I mentionned before, the only items usefull are medkit/laser/HE grenades.
Silencer reduced the dispersion, less than laser, so it's not used because even if your weapon doesn't make sounds when firing, the player does make sound by moving, and I'm not even talking about the fact you can expect your opponents movements in machs, so the silencer is not used,
Tacgoogles are used to counter Smokes. But the fact they exist is one reason smokes arent used at all, so both smokes and tacgoogles are useless right now. I watch all the TS matchs, saw smokes used 5 times, 3 where for trolling. The other reason about the fact smokes are not used, is because even if smokes are better than nothing, there are useless compared to HE Grenades : blocking a vision is nothing compared to the damages dealt with HE.
I'm not even talking about extra ammo : can be usefull in public, but it's useless in matchs. Should not be changed.

Proposed solution :
This time the solution isn't from me, but I can't honestly remember when I read it. The good solution is that one :
- First of all is adding Flash Grenades. Everybody that played CS at least a week know that those flashs grenades are weapons that make the game faster by giving RUSH teams an advantage, and camp teams a huge disadvantage. That's how it works.
- Then, about grenades choice : right now, you chose one set of grenades of an other. A good solution should be to have a 3 grenades set, in which you cant choose more than 2 grenades of each type. You can choose a grenade of each kind (he/flash/smoke), or 2 of one kind and one of an other.
With that solution, even if HE are the best of the 3 grenades, you make the 2 others usefull. And so you give smoke/flash, who are rush weapons, a reason to live.


That's all for tonight :)

[Megalodon]

Erm I do trust your information but out of curiosity
How did you calculate the information used to produce the pie graphs?
Did you visit every single match and record the data there? X)
And believe it or not, MAC is actually a good weapon it has a very fast reload
If not the fastest and its fire rate is really fast! It shreds through people without kevlar
and needs a bit more skill to kill people with kevlar.
And if your statstics are correct, I think people will just stay by choosing 2 of HE's and something else,
IMO, it could be a bit OP, if you can use your nades properly then that is an easy 4 Kills for you.

[<PWC>YAY5637]

Quote

Can be found there : http://shourt.fr/Base

I cant access this page. Edit:works now thx ;)
Interesting page

Otherwise: Nice thoughts and explanations

This post has been edited by YAY5637: 13 February 2014 - 08:10 PM

[FS Frankie V]

Good stuff but lets put the competitive side of the game away for now and add a few variables into the mix.

The much needed repairs to server side collision detection (hitmesh) was needed as it was discovered that in 4.1 the design had become broken and detection was not occurring as high as 12% of the time. By far this problem was noted by the majority new to the game during pub game play and was noted more than a few times by reviews posted on the Internet.

Obviously this is not a good thing as part of the ongoing effort to attract new players to the game as their first experiences with the game is by taking part in public matches before deciding to take part in organized events so the need is for a good first impression as to the expatiation as to what all FPS type games should offer as being standardized. You point a digital gun and pull the trigger there is a result.

With collision detection fixed this left the second part of the problem still in need of some form of fix or repair on the part of the client. Since the collision detection problems was only discovered later the majority of all weapons was balanced based on a false variable of hits not occurring 12% of the time and code was added to attempt to globally balance the weapons based on a broken variable.

If anything this global balance was removed as to what the player sees as or “feels” off between the client and what occurs on the server which removes the so called lucky hit or in most cases the unlucky miss. With all things being equal both the client and server are now better synced as to expectations of all FPS type games be it COD,CS or BF, that as new players to Urban Terror, and not new to FPS, would recognize instantly as a basic skill requirement.

This needs to be mentioned as part of any evaluation as the “feel” factor is non-descriptive that can easily be fixed between what the player sees client side and what actually occurs server side as to truth.

A good example is the mentioning that the recoil of the AK is off assuming that what they are referring to is the animation of the first person perspective that is not synced to the code as to recoil/spread and the player is reacting to what they see as to expatiation.

Does it need to be changed?

Well to keep the current players happy nothing needs to be changed at all but if the ideals as to increasing the number of players from our current player community can only be accomplished through action on our part then the first step is to introduce an acceptable expatiation that is not unique to Urban Terror, and is a requirement to relearn, that only continues to support a “learned” skill.

In all though p5yc0runn3r is doing it the right way by introducing the “possible” fix as to “does not feel right” in a controlled manner by breaking it first and then fixing it by removing global values and focusing more on what each weapons needs as far as balancing goes with out false values getting in the way.

After all the SPAS is finally behaving in an expected manner. ;)

Now meaning no disrespect to the competitive/organized gaming community, as their needs will always be considered as a corner stone requirement anyways, but the pressing need to “fix” things is all about attracting new players to the game and keeping them playing.

P.S. Nice analysis. \o

[redsnappa]

I notice that knife use is virtually non-existent. I don't know what could be done about this, but it would be nice to see something done.

I am very surprised to see that almost no high-level players use the AK103. I have more success with it than with the other autos.

The PSG is properly thought of as a marksman rifle, not a sniper rifle. It is something that a military platoon would use on targets that are too far away for their main battle rifles but not far enough away to require a proper sniper rifle. It functions fairly well by that standard.

I find that SPAS is best for sneaking up on opponents and for point-blank CQB, not to complete a sniper loadout.

I could see increasing the rate of fire of the MAC-11 as a possible solution, or increasing its damage while decreasing its accuracy, but I agree that it is probably doomed to be a troll weapon.

The Negev need not be a troll weapon. Increase its damage to be like the other weapons that fire 5.56x45mm NATO rounds, decrease its accuracy, and assign it a movement/stamina penalty like the Kevlar Vest has.

I think of the HK69 as a disruption/special weapon, useful for discouraging people from using certain areas and hitting targets that are beyond and over a wall. For example, when playing Rumble, I can deny access to the top level of the other team's base by continually lobbing grenades up there. Knowing precisely how to do this can all but eliminate camping on the map. YMMV on whether this constitutes "trolling;" I think of it as a legitimate strategy because the mapmaker did nothing to prevent it and it does not involve a glitch.

One way to make smoke grenades more interesting and useful would be to have them cause damage while a player is in their area of effect. In other words, turn them into poison gas grenades.

Finally, I propose an overhaul of the sidearms, grenades, and knives. Group all of them into a new category called Tertiary Weapons, of which a player may carry up to three. Carrying less than three would allow a player to carry more accessories. This would allow loadouts such as 2 handguns+HE grenades+no knife, no handgun+HE grenades+smoke grenades+Kabar, and no handgun+HE grenades+Kabar+shurikens (a weapon I would like to see added), which are presently not allowed.

This post has been edited by redsnappa: 14 February 2014 - 09:37 PM

[FS Frankie V]

redsnappa, on 14 February 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

I could see increasing the rate of fire of the MAC-11 as a possible solution, or increasing its damage while decreasing its accuracy, but I agree that it is probably doomed to be a troll weapon.

The Mac11 was added to fill in a defensive hole in the CTF game type. The ideal is high rate of fire and short range for up close wet work. Not a suitable weapon, or intended, for TS type play or rushing.

Most weapons will require balancing after the beta is working the way it should.

Overall though weapon balance should not just be about rushing but rather a load out that provides the basics as well as a few weapons based on a give need.

The HK 69 is an excellent tool to weed out those pesky campers.

[strayA#Pez]

I really like shoushou's suggestions, there's not much i disagree with! Particularly the AK balance, grenade improvement and unzoom/aimpunch for the snipers, that would work well with a no movement penalty sr8 which seems to be inevitable.

[wTf|beautifulNihilist]

100% AK helmet damage seems extremely unbalanced to me.

Not only against the LRM4300, but it removes the PSG completely.

The AK chews people to bits in 2 hits with no kevlar, which does happen in CTF games.

This post has been edited by beautifulNihilist: 15 February 2014 - 01:41 AM

[strayA#Pez]

beautifulNihilist, on 15 February 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

100% AK helmet damage seems extremely unbalanced to me.


The AK chews people to bits in 2 hits with no kevlar, which does happen in CTF games.

The amount of people that wear no kev in Competitive games is minimal, however i do believe 100% is a bit overkill, but perhaps somewhere between 70-90 would be more reasonable.

[wTf|beautifulNihilist]

Pez, on 15 February 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

The amount of people that wear no kev in Competitive games is minimal, however i do believe 100% is a bit overkill, but perhaps somewhere between 70-90 would be more reasonable.

I like to camp the flag with the AK and hunt and kill the kev droppers. There are quite a few drops on Abbey and some other fast-cap finesse maps.

I think there would be less kevlar if we did not have the AK, I think the AK is a reason why kevlar is used.
People do not use the AK because people use kevlar. People use kevlar because otherwise someone will switch to the AK (no, that is not the only reason).

I'm not against upping the AK helmet damage another 10 points or so, 100 is not a good idea.