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Urban Terror meets Github
#71
Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:58 PM
Yes, the barrier is so high to join the team. They are:
1. don't have a bad attitude toward the team you will be working with
2. have ability
3. sign an NDA and a Contributer's Agreement (these were added so we can maintain assets like maps after someone has left)
Yep, pretty hard things to overcome to get on the team. This is the same crap I've been hearing for 14 years. For 14 years I've watched team members quit due to the community. Artists and coders quit after 2.3 due to complaints over their player model skins. Funny that it is the two artists who made the 2.3 skins that are now the community's favourites but at the time the community hated them and the two artists quit as a result. Our lead coder quit after 2.4 for the same reason. He had had enough. Our coders have had death threats over the years as have I. It's pretty sad when you consider UrT is one of the early mods of Q3. It was made by community members for community members and still is. In the old days you didn't modify someone's mod either.
After all we have done for free for almost 15 years, why shouldn't we monetize the game when we build it on UE4? It's our work and we can do what we want with it. We have no obligation to do anything for anyone. We aren't your slaves. We actually didn't want to but now after all these comments I think we should sell it and then maybe people would value it more and stop telling us we owe them something because they play our game.
Open Source has developed a following of people who treat it more like a religion and are hell bent on forcing everyone else to worship their "god".
Why do you hate freedom? Why do you hate free enterprise? Are you communists? Do you work for free and then get welfare so you can live? Why do you admonish people who make a game and then monetize it like Valve? You keep bringing up this monetization of our work as though that would be wrong; why? What is wrong with this free enterprise undertaking?
1. don't have a bad attitude toward the team you will be working with
2. have ability
3. sign an NDA and a Contributer's Agreement (these were added so we can maintain assets like maps after someone has left)
Yep, pretty hard things to overcome to get on the team. This is the same crap I've been hearing for 14 years. For 14 years I've watched team members quit due to the community. Artists and coders quit after 2.3 due to complaints over their player model skins. Funny that it is the two artists who made the 2.3 skins that are now the community's favourites but at the time the community hated them and the two artists quit as a result. Our lead coder quit after 2.4 for the same reason. He had had enough. Our coders have had death threats over the years as have I. It's pretty sad when you consider UrT is one of the early mods of Q3. It was made by community members for community members and still is. In the old days you didn't modify someone's mod either.
After all we have done for free for almost 15 years, why shouldn't we monetize the game when we build it on UE4? It's our work and we can do what we want with it. We have no obligation to do anything for anyone. We aren't your slaves. We actually didn't want to but now after all these comments I think we should sell it and then maybe people would value it more and stop telling us we owe them something because they play our game.
Open Source has developed a following of people who treat it more like a religion and are hell bent on forcing everyone else to worship their "god".
Why do you hate freedom? Why do you hate free enterprise? Are you communists? Do you work for free and then get welfare so you can live? Why do you admonish people who make a game and then monetize it like Valve? You keep bringing up this monetization of our work as though that would be wrong; why? What is wrong with this free enterprise undertaking?
#72
Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:16 PM
t3slider, on 09 June 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:
The problem with this approach is that some people may not be fantastic coders, but there may be a bug that has been sitting around seemingly forever... As it is, there are years-old bugs that have been reported that no one in FS seems at all willing to address or fix (which is fine)
https://github.com/F...Terror42/issues
Post it there if it's not already up, it will either be addressed or fixed.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/OQ7HC64.gif[/img]
#73
Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:15 PM
t3slider, on 09 June 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:
I would be happy even with an open source codebase (or even fragments with anti-cheat removed, though maintaining a repo like that would be unreasonable) with a non-permissive license, so at least some fixes could be submitted even if a fork is not allowed. As it is we are at the mercy of developers who (rightfully) enjoy adding new features over fixing existing ones, and the barrier to entry is high enough that few people will join the developer team.
Both options (keeping the source closed and opening it up) suck, but it is my personal opinion that the community would be better served if it was opened up. Most FS members clearly disagree, and really I'm not sure of the legality of open-sourcing if you didn't force contributors to transfer their ownership of contributions to FS in the first place (and with a project as old as UrT there is certainly a good chance that open-sourcing would be illegal and therefore a pointless discussion). But only FS would know that anyway.
At the very least I would hope most would agree that the current situation is sub-optimal, though whether or not it can be improved is debatable.
What's wrong with the idea of signing the NDA and Contributors agreement?
If Urban Terror was a spread sheet, word processor, or even a operating system then there is a logical argument to be made as to open sourcing as these are applications of practical use based on implantation of code.
Urban Terror on the other hand is a video game where the needs of those who play the game demand their ideals be implemented of what is possible of code driven content. Think about it people play with content and not code and the code is in such a state that the two are interwoven that if one does not know both sides of the coin things will exploded.
This is where being part of a group, called a team or other wise, who's number one priority is to ensure that those who work on the game, as well as play it, have fun and can work together and even then we still screw things up. One small change in a global variable and every jump map made breaks and is no fun to fix after the fact.
Yeah we are protective but no one has ever asked what's there to be protective about and top of the list is to bias decisions in favor of those who play the game and accommodate those who are part of the group as to access to areas in full as to where they can help out with.
As Raider stated there is a faction of our community, small as it is, who have their own interests that is not suitable with our desire to maintain and work on a free game and the moment we let down our guard as to a level of trust “someone†based on their own agenda leaked the game code to the “cheat†community in an attempt to “force†us to open source.
Will Urban Terror ever be made Open Source?
All things are possible but the moment that happens would be an indicator that no one on the team is interested in maintaining a game already finished and the community at large will be on their own.
So really the root of the problem is a question of trust when facing a handful of individuals with their own personal agenda to destroy a community with history seen from this side of the blue curtain so when we say the community is at fault be assured they are a small faction that can do a lot of damage with the intention to do so.
All of this of course does not mean we are not trying. We discus open source regularly so it's not something we ignore but rather take inventory from time to time when things change and pushing things to Github is but a first baby step in figuring out how to do things in a protective manner.
t3slider, on 09 June 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:
At the very least I would hope most would agree that the current situation is sub-optimal, though whether or not it can be improved is debatable.
I/we would agree if there was a way to keep the bad guys out and RaideR has only ranted on the tip of the iceburg as to the evil intent of just a handful of individuals with their own agenda not compatible with either our intent of best interest of the community and the ideals of open source as applied to the unique requirements of a video game.
doing "stuff" with dead things.
#74
Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:22 PM
it was nice to see people again discussing my post and pulling it apart analytically in order to make a concise point of reputation.
I was being openly honest. This is what i mean by "Support" it simply isn't given in good keep. It's always a quid pro quo to get something.
It's really supper simple.
1. Get on with FS
2. Have a skill set that lets you work on the game in some area with a certain degree of compitency
3. Sign a NDA / Contrib agreement....
What are people so butt hurt that FS which to protect their IP rights and we choose as human being to work with people we like not people who bitch and moan at us.
The offer still stands from earlier, but i can't help but feel my point was made in spades.
I was being openly honest. This is what i mean by "Support" it simply isn't given in good keep. It's always a quid pro quo to get something.
It's really supper simple.
1. Get on with FS
2. Have a skill set that lets you work on the game in some area with a certain degree of compitency
3. Sign a NDA / Contrib agreement....
What are people so butt hurt that FS which to protect their IP rights and we choose as human being to work with people we like not people who bitch and moan at us.
The offer still stands from earlier, but i can't help but feel my point was made in spades.
#75
Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:10 PM
Yikes, remind me not to post here again. It never goes over well. I wasn't trying to be confrontational...just providing my personal opinions, which I thought were balanced but I guess not. I don't see any demands in my post but I guess we read what we want to read.
(On a side note, if you think FS is the only member of the UrT community that has to deal with malcontents then you are clearly only seeing one side of things.)
(On a side note, if you think FS is the only member of the UrT community that has to deal with malcontents then you are clearly only seeing one side of things.)
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#76
Posted 09 June 2014 - 11:14 PM
t3slider, on 09 June 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:
Yikes, remind me not to post here again. It never goes over well. I wasn't trying to be confrontational...just providing my personal opinions, which I thought were balanced but I guess not. I don't see any demands in my post but I guess we read what we want to read.
(On a side note, if you think FS is the only member of the UrT community that has to deal with malcontents then you are clearly only seeing one side of things.)
(On a side note, if you think FS is the only member of the UrT community that has to deal with malcontents then you are clearly only seeing one side of things.)
Well see this is how it goes. The moment we try to convey the level and degree of our reality it becomes confrontational rather than a discussion to invite a debate, a discussion, as to how we can improve and work towards the best solution.
Every time we attempt to be more open the less we have done in the past gets overlooked as to what has already improved over the years. Waking up tomorrow and it's all going to be better is not going to happen and yet things have improved over the years based on community feedback which we never get any credit for period.
I believe in large part there is the overall perspective that Frozen Sand is just another typical games development company when in reality FS functions as an old school mod team, the last of it's kind as far as I know, so from our point of view is the question “why would anyone want to mod a game that’s already a mod?â€
As always we invite what might be unpleasant but if what is being asked of us as a team in the area of transparency is an honest answer than the response at times is no longer going to be sugar coated in an effort to not hurt feelings when what we have to deal with is interpreted as yet another excuse that does not fit the ideals of the individual.
As for the so called malcontents to be dealt with that others have to deal with that’s to bad but why would that be our problem as part of the development of the game?
Back to the question in hand though yet to be answered.
What's wrong with the idea of signing the NDA and Contributors agreement?
P.S. No I'm not being confrontational but if a workable solution can be worked out it may create an “option†rather than a debate and how we discuss things in an open forum is the same way we work on decisions that needs to be made behind close doors.
doing "stuff" with dead things.
#77
Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:52 AM
RaideR, on 09 June 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:
The offer still stands from earlier, but i can't help but feel my point was made in spades.
Don't feel that way, I think your point was well made and I very much understand. Many others do to.
I'm emailing my simple app now. Thanks for the friendly response and clarification.
-- MooN
#78
Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:20 AM
the majority in this team, came up to help and just inherited of the blue color. So we're usually seen as a group who needs community. It means for many that we're not part of it. The game needs community, just not in the way you want. And from a personal point of view the community is not that looking so good when you get into FS, it is just smaller so less problems than in others but even with this size it can be already a pain.
We had the criticism on the way we're communicating. If no one joins to do that part then you'll inherit of a bad communication. Simple as that. We're many players working together with different POV, dealing with many changes. Reading people of this community saying that we should do that this way while this kind of subject has been discussed more than many times the past years is annoying. So when somebody comes up and tell your team, "you should know that better and consider this cause you're obviously living in a hole while you need us" it's depressing. It's just an eternal loop, one of them. And i'm only in since three years. The game needs you, FS members don't need this game to live. It makes me feel you didn't understood what this game was all about since years. That there's also people thinking like you about OS in FS, but that the majority decided to keep it closed. Even though i don't feel concerned about OS subject we're pretty aware of what's going on "outside".
Personnally with the amount of assholes you don't consider/know/not even aware of vs the small amount of guys standing up like you i prefer it closed now.
People never consider, since they keep comparing us with valve/ ID/ even Crytek, FS capacity & individual will(s) because this last thing is what makes somebody joins. I was not even registered to that website or even not following it when i contacted them, so seeing this much problem to work with a group is kind of hard to believe.
Also no, we're definitely not in competition (anymore?) with these other games. Which leads you yet to misconception of what this team is composed of. We know about talented people, there's simply too few who can even look at Urt today without puking and i can't blame them. And talking about artists there's nothing much to hire for this old engine. The goal is not to keep it surviving, the goal is to make it more visible on the long term. While I wish unvanquished, ET project a lot of luck & tenacity, competition on playerbase & recruitments is elsewhere for us now and we're gonna probably meet it soon. We win or we lose it, not sure somebody cares much of this in the team. But if somebody cares and has a super plan he can also join, cause that's a work too.
We had the criticism on the way we're communicating. If no one joins to do that part then you'll inherit of a bad communication. Simple as that. We're many players working together with different POV, dealing with many changes. Reading people of this community saying that we should do that this way while this kind of subject has been discussed more than many times the past years is annoying. So when somebody comes up and tell your team, "you should know that better and consider this cause you're obviously living in a hole while you need us" it's depressing. It's just an eternal loop, one of them. And i'm only in since three years. The game needs you, FS members don't need this game to live. It makes me feel you didn't understood what this game was all about since years. That there's also people thinking like you about OS in FS, but that the majority decided to keep it closed. Even though i don't feel concerned about OS subject we're pretty aware of what's going on "outside".
Personnally with the amount of assholes you don't consider/know/not even aware of vs the small amount of guys standing up like you i prefer it closed now.
People never consider, since they keep comparing us with valve/ ID/ even Crytek, FS capacity & individual will(s) because this last thing is what makes somebody joins. I was not even registered to that website or even not following it when i contacted them, so seeing this much problem to work with a group is kind of hard to believe.
Also no, we're definitely not in competition (anymore?) with these other games. Which leads you yet to misconception of what this team is composed of. We know about talented people, there's simply too few who can even look at Urt today without puking and i can't blame them. And talking about artists there's nothing much to hire for this old engine. The goal is not to keep it surviving, the goal is to make it more visible on the long term. While I wish unvanquished, ET project a lot of luck & tenacity, competition on playerbase & recruitments is elsewhere for us now and we're gonna probably meet it soon. We win or we lose it, not sure somebody cares much of this in the team. But if somebody cares and has a super plan he can also join, cause that's a work too.
#79
Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:20 PM
We were asked to go pro by id Software when they released Q3 Gold (the same time that Splash Damage went pro after being asked). We declined because we didn't want to be pros. We were happy to stay as amateurs. This was over 10 years ago and hasn't changed. We have toyed with the idea of going pro over the years but things never worked out in that regard. We aren't in competition with other games. Never have been. We like playing Urban Terror and make the game so we can have fun. It's as simple as that. I've been on the dev team since 1.0 was released (I started playing with 1.0) so I've seen almost all of UrT's history. Things really haven't changed; just some of the people. People join the team for two main reasons; 1. they love the game and want to contribute and/or 2. they want experience working on games to help them get a job in the industry.
The malcontents as previously mentioned have been around since 2.0. That's when it got like this because that's when the game became really popular. I used to compete and my clan leader at one time was a league admin. I know all too well what it is like for admins. He quit UrT after awhile due to the malcontents and I haven't heard from him since. We have a few old league admins still on the team who can tell you how much worse it used to be. There was a lot of gnashing of teeth and banging of drums in the old league forums.
The malcontents as previously mentioned have been around since 2.0. That's when it got like this because that's when the game became really popular. I used to compete and my clan leader at one time was a league admin. I know all too well what it is like for admins. He quit UrT after awhile due to the malcontents and I haven't heard from him since. We have a few old league admins still on the team who can tell you how much worse it used to be. There was a lot of gnashing of teeth and banging of drums in the old league forums.
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