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[RC] UrT 4.3 Release Candidate 4

#41 User is offline   Makeurtgreatagain Icon

Posted 18 June 2016 - 04:19 AM

View PostBarbatos, on 18 June 2016 - 12:33 AM, said:

I'm busy IRL since several weeks and till next month. Hopefully we can release 4.3 this summer.

then just release it as-is and ship the source and then the community will handle fixing it and maintenance of 4.x
FS apparently neither cares nor has time to dedicate to supporting two games, the source is already out-there you can leave auth support out if you must,nobody uses it anyway

this is gonna be the last release of 4.3 so basically you are gonna ship a release and not support it '
thats signing the death warrant for the game,as HD is YEARS out at your current pace
seriously what do you have to lose you are already making anouther game in a completely different engine, that is never going to play exactly identical to 4.x
all you are doing is hurting what remains of the player-base,given the age of the engine and how much QVM is actively exploitable on modern hardware security is also a non issue,there nothing left to fragment,licensing issues don't exist because you are already grossly in violation of several terms and if somebody was gonna sue they a: would have done it by now b: you have no money to defend a court case and would likely cave/fold anyway so really what exactly are you protecting by not letting us do your job for you ?

This post has been edited by Makeurtgreatagain: 18 June 2016 - 04:26 AM



#43 User is offline   Makeurtgreatagain Icon

Posted 19 June 2016 - 03:32 AM

thats what we where told when 4.3 was announced that 4.3 would be the last 4.x release

and really having played the RC its not even close to being ready in terms of game balance
which is CRITICAL to get right the first time around
you need to find a way to get people in the RC servers so the balance can get hammered out

its been almost a year since a patch so say you release 4.3 tomarrow and we all hate it
how long will it be before we get anouther patch to correct the issues two three years ?
we went though this with 3.6 to 4.0 and it nearly annihilated the game

I am not placing the blame on you but this shit needs to stop if FS doesn't have the time/talent to manage 4.x properly then just release it with the source and walk away
let whatever may be be at this stage there is NOTHING To Lose
and honestly I could knock out the remaining issues with the weapon balance and clean up the code inside a week I am off during the summer
but I don't do closed source

This post has been edited by Makeurtgreatagain: 19 June 2016 - 03:36 AM



#45 User is offline   Makeurtgreatagain Icon

Posted 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM

the same issues others have brought up so many times I have stopped counting

benelli is pointless because its near unusable because the projectile size is so small and by the time you line up two shots you are dead
the FR-1 less damage and a slightly slower cycle time

the magnum has so much re-coil that it loses every engagement and it makes no sense for it to be less powerful then a .50AE in the desert eagle

the p90 is capable of destroying a entire team with a single clip and rendering the lr/m4 nearly moot -except in very long engagements (perhaps its time to give the m4 some real differentiation why not make it 5.56 and have it have a higher ROF then the lr)

not a fan of the new 'fake' recoil simulation its plain painful to look at

the stamina and movement need to go back to 4.1 values and knee and foot shots need to go or have greatly reduced crippling (this is big complain from seasoned people the less is more approach is the way to fix this)

Instagib is a cancer , its easy and takes 80% of the skill out of the game and over time will be the death of it ( I have seen this happen in so many other games that suddenly introduce a insta mode and then everything else dies)

and the final nail is you need to buckle down and enforce a 16 or 18 active-player limit because 25 and 32 slot servers are good for nobody (this is super ultra mega critical these servers need to go and for heavens sake fix the bot detection in the server browser and default it to off)

This post has been edited by Makeurtgreatagain: 21 June 2016 - 05:39 AM


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#46 User is offline   ringel Icon

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 10:14 AM

Barbatos this is really an insult to anyone who ever posted some thoughts about the weapon balance. The point is, it the current version it is NON-EXISTENT...

List of viable Weapons (Pro and Public)

Primary:
  • LR300 / M4
  • SR8 (in special situations)


Secondary:
  • UMP (dont know if it will ever be used again after p90 is here)
  • p90


Sidearm:
  • DE


List of viable gears:
  • Helmet (nearly 100% of Players use it)
  • Kevlar
  • Grenades
  • MedKit
  • Laser


List of dead weapons and gears:
  • G36
  • AK
  • H&K 69
  • PSG
  • Negev
  • FR F1
  • Baretta
  • Glock
  • Colt
  • Magnum
  • Spas
  • MP5
  • Mac
  • Smoke
  • Silencer
  • Night Vision
  • Extra Ammu


If you consider a game as "balanced" in which more than half of the weapons and gears are never ever used because the other outperform them so badly, nobody can help you.
What annoys me the most is that nobody in the dev team seams to care that nearly all of their power is spend to produce even more never used items or game modes. In order to make the game deeper and give the players more variety, it would be so much more effective to balance the stuff you already have and bring the dead half of the game to life.

Btw. this can be applied for the match modes as well:

Modes being played:
  • TS
  • CTF
  • Bomb
  • TDM (public only)


Modes never being touched
  • LMS
  • FFA
  • FTL
  • CNH
  • FT


The only reasonable conclusion is: We don't need more modes and weapons, we need more viable possibilities to play within the modes we have and with the weapons / gears we got!

But in the end 4.3 will have more dead weapons, more dead modes, and everything else is untouched... sad

This post has been edited by ringel: 21 June 2016 - 10:15 AM


#47 User is offline   Iye Icon

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 11:12 AM

Now. lets make some multiple pages long posts. besides those should probably go into a different section and thread, but hey.

View PostMakeurtgreatagain, on 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

benelli is pointless because its near unusable because the projectile size is so small and by the time you line up two shots you are dead

From my testing in CTF on turnpike, i found it rather usefull there (and no, there actually were players around at that point). Only think is, i would like to see an increase in clipsize so you dont have to worry about missing that much.

View PostMakeurtgreatagain, on 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

the FR-1 less damage and a slightly slower cycle time

Now here i would actually have called something "useless". at least from my pov. handles almost exactly like a sr8 (except the shorter bolt action time), but just just inferior in any other sense. I could use a PSG and get more DPS out of it.

View PostMakeurtgreatagain, on 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

the magnum has so much re-coil that it loses every engagement and it makes no sense for it to be less powerful then a .50AE in the desert eagle

I agree, its kinda meh. but same like the benelli, it has a very good chance of killing within just two shots. and, as the firerate is that low, the recoil doesnt seem to be that big of an issue to me, as it nearly steadies within the cooldown.

View PostMakeurtgreatagain, on 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

the p90 is capable of destroying a entire team with a single clip

its a bit worrisome, yes. but as i couldnt get into its proper useage (except for the obvious 3 round bursts at mid range and the spray and pray at close range) i cant really tell.

View PostMakeurtgreatagain, on 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

(perhaps its time to give the m4 some real differentiation why not make it 5.56 and have it have a higher ROF then the lr)

I've always felt the m4 to be different. i dont know why, as i know it shouldnt. but yes. it some changes to it could be nice.

View PostMakeurtgreatagain, on 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

not a fan of the new 'fake' recoil simulation its plain painful to look at

?

View PostMakeurtgreatagain, on 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

the stamina and movement need to go back to 4.1 values and knee and foot shots need to go or have greatly reduced crippling (this is big complain from seasoned people the less is more approach is the way to fix this)

About the stamina and stuff, i think its OK.
"i used to walljump, but then i took an arrow to the knee.."
you are probably right about reducing the movement impact on lower leg and foot hits.


View PostMakeurtgreatagain, on 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

Instagib is a cancer , its easy and takes 80% of the skill out of the game and over time will be the death of it ( I have seen this happen in so many other games that suddenly introduce a insta mode and then everything else dies)

I dont see instagib killing everything else. It also is no gamemode, but a change to all gamemodes if turned of. You could just play instagib CTF for the lulz.....
My major problem is that the FS-Tod50 doesnt handle like a sr8 (at least if feels like), which makes me fear playing it, is i do like hitting stuff with an sr8...

View PostMakeurtgreatagain, on 21 June 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

and the final nail is you need to buckle down and enforce a 16 or 18 active-player limit because 25 and 32 slot servers are good for nobody (this is super ultra mega critical these servers need to go and for heavens sake fix the bot detection in the server browser and default it to off)

I dont see any reasonable way to do this, except for excluding those from masterlist.
And after all, it will probably make more people unhappy than others happy.
I dont like 30 player roundbased modes as well, but i just dont play on those servers... :)

This post has been edited by Iye: 21 June 2016 - 11:13 AM

Sorry for my bad spelling - I am still asleep. :)

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#48 User is offline   Iye Icon

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:16 PM

View Postringel, on 21 June 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Barbatos this is really an insult to anyone who ever posted some thoughts about the weapon balance. The point is, it the current version it is NON-EXISTENT...

So im going to assume that you see the balance as non existent. And well, we all know the statistics, and by your assumed definition of balance, you are right. But...

View Postringel, on 21 June 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

If you consider a game as "balanced" in which more than half of the weapons and gears are never ever used because the other outperform them so badly, nobody can help you.

First of lets start with equipment that simply will never be balanced.
You will never balance the HK, due to obvious reasons. Same goes for the negev (due to the ammo cap requiring a nerf to the dmg) and the spas (due to the rng involved in multiple pellets and stuff). That spas thing could be overcome by implementing a cone aoe dmg zone infront of it, but thats a different story.

Now for all the other guns, they either fullfill such similar roles (compare mac&mp5, or m4&lr), or have different roles and applications, compare AK&G36.

Then there are items that just fk up everything, like nvgs.


View Postringel, on 21 June 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

What annoys me the most is that nobody in the dev team seams to care that nearly all of their power is spend to produce even more never used items or game modes.

Most of the new assets were done ages ago, with the planned idtech5 based urt HD.
And after all, FS does this for fun, so if they like implementing freezetag, its just their thing.

View Postringel, on 21 June 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

In order to make the game deeper and give the players more variety, it would be so much more effective to balance the stuff you already have and bring the dead half of the game to life.

Hey. Frankie likes doing stuff with dead things........... :)


View Postringel, on 21 June 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Btw. this can be applied for the match modes as well.

Of course it can. CAH just lacks a reason, if you dont like rusharound cap and recap.
And the modes you listed as popular, are popular for a reason. they just involve more tactics and depth than the others, while CAH, really needs team coordination to work, which you then probably dont have on public servers.


View Postringel, on 21 June 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

The only reasonable conclusion is: We don't need more modes and weapons, we need more viable possibilities to play within the modes we have and with the weapons / gears we got!

Good point. 2 things though: this is no reason not to add more stuff, even more so if its already made. Also, any suggestions?

View Postringel, on 21 June 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

But in the end 4.3 will have more dead weapons, more dead modes, and everything else is untouched... sad

So nothing changed? where is the problem than?

//edit iye:
this is actually what its meant to be deep within. just release everything you have made for idtech, and be done with it, except for bugfixes.

Of course that makes the point that it could do good with some more polishing/"balance" before release.

This post has been edited by Iye: 21 June 2016 - 12:18 PM

Sorry for my bad spelling - I am still asleep. :)

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#49 User is offline   ringel Icon

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 01:08 PM

View PostIye, on 21 June 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

Most of the new assets were done ages ago, with the planned idtech5 based urt HD.
And after all, FS does this for fun, so if they like implementing freezetag, its just their thing.

I think you have a point here, if everything is ready and tested, there is no reason not to publish it. But if so, FS should have plenty of time to do the balance stuff anyways :) I understand that it is more fun to develop new things - I am talking out of my perspective - a gamer who hates to see this game dying and hates that the developer have the tools and obviously the time to do great stuff (which I really appreciate) but dont use it in the right direction (from my point of view).

View PostIye, on 21 June 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

You will never balance the HK, due to obvious reasons. Same goes for the negev (due to the ammo cap requiring a nerf to the dmg) and the spas (due to the rng involved in multiple pellets and stuff). That spas thing could be overcome by implementing a cone aoe dmg zone infront of it, but thats a different story.

Don't get it. Obvious reasons? There is absolutely no reason that the game and the players strategical decisions have to be that one dimensional. Overwatch demonstrates very well that different weapons can go well together and even can support each other. Of cause a HK should never be a weapon which is viable if the whole team uses it, but one player per team using it strategical should be. Same for negev and spass. In UrT we always that the better player should win each 1v1 regardless of the gear, distance,... in my opinion this is toxic, because new players dont have a "save" way to get in contact with the game and have fun. Why shouldnt a player be allowed to use his head when selecting the weapon according to his playstyle: Close combat, action packed - spass; Stationary, defensive - negev; strategical, supportive - hk69.

View PostIye, on 21 June 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

Now for all the other guns, they either fullfill such similar roles (compare mac&mp5, or m4&lr), or have different roles and applications, compare AK&G36.

You are absolutely right. But again the problem is (from my point of view) that you think to one dimensional. Different pistols could have advantages for different distances or suit to special primaries well.
AK and G36 are a very good example of weapons which have different roles and applications and are still not used very often - since they are not balanced. The AK is only usefull if the opp has no kevlar and the G36 is only usefull on very few maps in special locations. I think the G36 could need a damage buff in scoped mode and a damage nerf or a accuracy nerf in unscoped mode. This way it could be a true mid to far distance weapon.
Btw. I would nerv the LR and M4 accuracy in far distance battles as well - this way the sniper rifles have a place in the game.

One more remark: Smoke is broken because of tac toggles. This might sound stupid but if there were no tac toogles, smoke and would have a tactical usecase in the game. With tac toggles in the game, smoke is just annoying since it leads to abuse. On public servers, when one player starts using smoke very much, everyone just gets tac toggles and the game simply gets uglier :)

And last but not least: I would love to see another tactical dimension added to the game: Speed and weight. If heavier weapons would reduce your top-speed, the damage of weapons like negev, sr8 and hk69 could be buffed without ruining the game. This way, these weapons could be used by beginners which haven't a decent movement yet.

#50 User is offline   Makeurtgreatagain Icon

Posted 21 June 2016 - 10:05 PM

the point is basically
UrT does not need more weapons it hasn't needed more weapons in 10 years why would it need more now

Less is more here we need to get back to what the game was before certain people that don't even play the game decided to make changes
change for change's sake is idiotic at best the past two major releases have proven that

Why do we need a shotgun that fires slugs and kills in two hits,we can already do that with the DE
why do we need a 3'd sniper rifle thats worse in every possible way
why do we need 3 pistols that that are inferior to everything else
why do we need the ability to carry two primary weapons ?
as it stands the only point in the new weapons is if you wanna give your self a handicap

and the worst offender of all it seems like there is a attempt to slow the game down and make it 'tactical'
NO tactical game-play does not belong in urt if you want that there is 40 other games you can play to scratch that itch
there is a list of things two pages long that we have been asking for 10 years
here is some highlights of issues still present

make the M4 different from the LR
make TAC googles blind-able by laser sight(to discourage smoke camping)
fix the retta-spam exploite (Enforced ROF limits)
a lighter form of armor with little to no speed penalty (been talking about this since 3.8)
Remove or completely fix bot support (kill them with fire)
give us more control over the networking cvars (coming still I hope ? )
Move to the latest version of ioquake and stay current with every release

curtail the plague that is 24 and 32 slot servers that completely and utterly break the game
1. make a default filter rule to hide any servers that have 'large games'

2. write some master-server code that automatically de-lists servers running 24 active-slots,and permaban any host that trys to circumvent
large servers are a huge huge drain on public server population because everybody piles in and everything else is empty and it needs to stop

at no point in the history of this game post 3.6 has any part of the community stood up and said we need more 'gunz'

This post has been edited by Makeurtgreatagain: 21 June 2016 - 10:12 PM


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