[Vortex2]

I was just thinking, that in CS... it could easily become a learned skill to record or at the very least to develop the habit of continually calculating how much money the enemy team has simply by reviewing each round (and doing so as quickly as possible).
^this could grant the benefit of the awareness of whether a CT member can afford a defuse kit if the CT player exposes himself with a certain weapon.

But is it fun? How much are we expected to keep track of, in addition to playing?

If we accept that we can gain an advantage by simply following statistics, is this something that each player should be obligated to do if he/she wishes to perform at the peak levels? Become a master statistician in addition to being a cunning strategist and perhaps a performance artist? Is this all a part of the notion of 'being' in the moment? Is playing the game about being present or about knowing what's going on? Or is it both?

I'm not sure, but if we can get information simply by recording it from ALL that is available and perhaps even going so far as to carry it on and make charts, graphs and spreadsheets... could we sell them? Can someone be responsible for exposing the patterns in the minds of top players by revealing tendencies? Can we predict what someone is going to do simply by watching them?

I feel this practice puts an unnecessary strain on Play itself by imposing strict limitations on the purpose of playing a game in the first place. But can effective preparation be overcome by pure brilliance in performance? Individual talent/ability which surpasses and indeed proves any calculated effort to be futile? I think such a thing depends on the complexity of the game itself. And Urban Terror is certainly, to me, a game which is complex enough such that a thing like this could occur.

This being said, however... I wonder. Is stats a real part of the competitive CS 'behind the scenes' scene? After all, Rank S IS broadcasted, as are matches and in the case of Mythic, scrims and practice (for the benefit of all players). So because it's allowed, because the information is being 'put out there', is it to be viewed by all players as 'a necessary evil' to record information? To effectively 'keep tabs'? Is it an adoptable practice only for those who feel so inclined? Those who are 'hardcore' enough? Those who are willing? Is it a methodology which provides a needed 'edge' for some players? I think it's a matter of preference, it's a decision... So. How far are you willing to go in this direction to get a win? And would you still feel the same about it?

Does the game become less fun when we focus on something intently? Like seeing a forest for the texture of the trees, examining the topography of the bark rather than appreciating the nature of the forest as it is... I imagine this kind of attachment could cause un-happiness for anyone, which would present as an illness associated with a noticeable (and perhaps manageable) distraction from the game itself. Why? Because as we recognize that increasingly, our play becomes less about the childhood ideal or dream of performing at the highest level and experiencing like-minded individuals in the free-spirited high-level sensibility of play, challenging and daring each other to go further and to reach higher, and more about developing the greatest and most-rigid deterministic mentality of all... Well, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, this, in turn, causes a sensation of internal opposition and conflict which upsets me to the point where I want to stop and grapple with whether or not playing the game itself is even worth my time, or anyone's time for that matter. If it's just a matter of memorization...

It kind of makes you wonder, in the end, is there play? Or is everything deterministically quantifiable to the extent that such a thing could never be possible?

Is it all simply a matter of the breakdown? Creating logistical sense of it all, and then capitalizing on the information you've recorded and 'learned'?

Many games which are included in the sphere of gambling exist due to set 'odds' or statistics which are determined by the nature of the game itself... but, even in D&D, there is always a 'game-master' or someone who is secretly running the operation from a hidden-vantage point as players come and go and ultimately serve them in a beneficial way while enjoying their experience. Is it possible that individuals who desire to win and to be the best would go so far as to adopt the ideal of reaching such a vantage point?

In the case of a hierarchical structure, or in an oligarchy, the 'game-master' receives tangible empowerment which he/she then (ideally) uses for the good of the other players in exchange as he/she manages his/her time and resources to produce more 'goods' which are really only material and serve no purpose beyond fulfilling basic needs... so, essentially to provide for his/her community...

But is anyone going to point out that by placing one person on a pedestal and allowing this to occur, we have effectively accepted a natural dominance which indeed should exist, but in addition, we have bought into an ideology in which we have to accept a confused duality and to see it as absolutely necessary rather than striving for pure being.

Duality is fine, in the case of gender for instance, when it would seem that there truly is the presence of polarity, of 2... but in the case of good/evil, there simply is no evil. Ideally, evil needn't ever be acknowledged. So why do we sense it? Because of consequential disorder... because of WRONG action, and of course, nature tells us when we're doing something wrong.

So where and how can we do wrong? Perhaps, in this case, it may be when someone decides to adapt the role of the provider only to use his 'advantage' in being able to see things which others do not for his/her own personal benefit (and for those who can benefit him/her in exchange), effectively birthing and representing 'the dark side' by stockpiling or hoarding information which is seen as 'exclusive' or 'lucrative'... holding some imagined value for the purpose of further exchange or personal gain.
^this is effectively turning the ladder into an impositional structure of unnatural hierarchy which presupposes the necessity to 'beat out' someone else. Which, is accomplished not so much by proving oneself via natural ability, but rather by having access to information.

This is how any state is run, ultimately by those who are before us. It is perhaps neccessary in the case of irl, where we can easily sense whether a decision is good or bad simply by examining it and using our capacity to feel how close it truly is to a natural order... but in a game, in the microcosm, is there room for 'good and bad'? Or should it be all good? Is such a thing possible with competitive play, or is competition itself the real issue?

I believe competition serves a grand purpose and fulfils many people as players actively strive toward the ideal of perfection in harmony with one another by sharing the same tradition or sport. Personally, I feel my tendency is to believe that the issue lies with the indivudal players who, unlike in the case of a sprint at the Olympics which is based purely in physical ability, have the capacity to use numbers in a wieldable way.

So why do we see evil when we look at the numbers? Why are we tempted to do something with them?

Is nature trying to tell us something?

Ultimately, I think there is a proper, fun and orderly way to break down the game which depends on personal experiences, preferences and creativity... maybe for instance, using a temporary system which incorporates 'cards' which show an image (of the strategy employed) which belong to a deck which belong to a set... so I think there are likely 'fun' ways to imagine the unfolding of a round which are totally based in what is metaphysically permissbale rather than reliance on numbers themselves in a statistical way. Which is weird, and perhaps unreliable in the context of the present moment where information is created to begin with.

My point is, simply, that we shouldn't have to worry. Right?

I think, perhaps, that for many reasons, Money adds unnecessary complication, certainly... even if only in a metaphorical sense, but again, I ask: Is money the problem? Or are we the problem?

PS: I think Urban Terror sells itself.

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 09 March 2017 - 04:51 AM

[Vortex2]

I think I solved the problem. Attribution is obfuscative. Everything is relative. Number only exists naturally.

As urban terror is a game which features beautiful physical environments and awesome game-physics, the additional 'feature' of introducing a system of attribution applied in the case of rewarding efforts to get 'kills' or determining 'how much' a weapon is worth, would, in fact, make the game itself less perfect.

In case you're following and wondering about the use of numbers in keeping score...

Each number is simply representative of real consequence which is connected to an action within the game itself (in temporal context) and thus is real and has occurred naturally. In the case of a video game, while the nature of these actions may be governed in a micocosmic reality which differs from the physics of the macrocosm, no attribution has taken place.

Bottom line: Score is legit, because it's not made-up (as would be the case of finding a way to create imbalance by 'adjusting' the calibration of the game by adding imaginary values and calling it money).

Stats reflect the past, but ultimately mean nothing and only ever will be a representative pattern indicative of a relative level of performance reflective of the level of play which has occurred (as an experiential phenomena).

Also, Awards simply 'ward' or effectively mark a level of performance which is the highest at a given time based on the competition.

Each one of us is and likely will always be capable of seeing and doing more: of playing better. (Ideally each time we play, we've improved... right?)

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 11 March 2017 - 07:08 AM

[KroniK]

You need a hobby :P

[wTf|beautifulNihilist]

I don't see the money system as compatible with Urban Terror.
Urban Terror has an extremely strong focus on weapon balance and money implies certain weapons are meant to be superior.
Certain weapons are generally better at different tasks, a PSG is not as useful in TS as CTF and an SR8 is not as useful in CTF as TS; but the weapons themselves do not increase in performance in a way that allows a monetary value to make any sense to me.
Even the pistols are on par with the primaries in many ways and beat them at others.
I see it doing little more than watering down the game by making fewer variations in weapons-in-play.
And at it's worst, it encourages unbalancing weapons to give them a higher value.

My argument isn't "this isn't Counter-Strike", but that this is Urban Terror.

[FS Frankie V]

In my opinion one of the core values of Urban Terror is it's simplistic game design that favors easy of use with a mix of complexity that favors tactics. Kind of like Baseball the rules of the game can be changed based on need but changing the fundamentals based on the idea that such changes will improve the game would not be all that attractive to the already established core player base, fans of the game, and lessons of the past learned even small changes can be upsetting to those that have stuck with the game over the years.

If the objective is to make Urban Terror more popular as it once was then changing core game features will not accomplish this task as feature changes with the intent of attracting new players to the game is rather moot with out the ability to promote the game towards those that might not even be aware that such a game even exists.

One of the question you ask was “why has the popularity of the game fallen off?” which there are many reasons as to the impact of time of a game that's been around since 1999 but by far the biggest impact has been that major gamer sites no longer accept our release announcements as a means of good will in favor of content that sells clicks like “Gamer Gate” or the latest micro issues of how “Anita Sarkeesian” whats to destroy the male dominance of video gaming.

In 2017 we now have to pay for the kind of promotion that we use to get for free so unless we do an Urban Terror sex tape there is little interest in main stream gaming to make a fuss over.

Changing core game features always makes for interesting beer and pizza talk but mail bombing TotalBiscuit that he should do a “Lets Play” or a “WTF” would be far easier to do and have a much larger impact than moving furniture around would have.

Sorry if I'm hijacking the topic but the game is the game and the focus as to the future of Urban Terror HD is towards community services that could just as easily be implemented in the 4.3 space and lots to do if “one” person is willing to take the necessary steps beyond the good idea stage.

[Vortex2]

I agree, we're lacking hype which at this point would seem to be required in order to be 'hip' and/or 'with it' which is an outdated way of saying 'meta'. It may seem like painful triviality, but the reality is that it's probably not overly complicated to fulfil some, if not all of the expectations of young people without losing face... right? We can do daily Twitter updates. Idk about UrT Dev-Team instagram or snapchat, but I'm sure someone out there would enjoy that...especially with a bigger player-base. Is it a good idea? Idk..

What I see Is this. The truth is simple: we lack a player-base (people who see the game for what it is) and it seems like an almost impossible feat for anyone in their 20s right now to pick up UrT and play it seriously. I don't know if it takes group meditation, or one friend making a power point presentation or sitting his friends down and saying "look, most games are shit."... All I know is that our player-base is looking pretty dwindly despite all the hard work, time and effort put into updates... so really, nobody is doing these things which would help to sustain/maintain an active player-base... and there are probably lots of people out there playing other games... leaving anyone who remains to support and play Urban Terror actively to be both very happy, and also very sad at times. :(

Honestly, I think the problem is primarily that so few people have heard of Urban Terror beacuse it is so difficult to find... and to appreciate... and then to sell your friends on it... These three steps, the first of which typically I imagine would only happen by chance or circumstances or thanks to extensive research beyond the sphere of what is culturally accepted... and is probably unfortunately really very unlikely to happen without, as you say, greater exposure... and whatever else we need to help people to really SEE this game (and maybe to learn what a good game is).

Right now we're pretty much riding on the experience of someone somehow finding us and saying "hey, this looks a lot like counter-strike, I wonder if it's any good"... before watching a nexu or tarquin video and downloading the game, which will go one of two ways:

The first outcome: is that they realize that it's the secret trampoline from that one episode of community (typically only if they are somewhat predisposed to patience, tolerance and most importantly have a genuine interest in FPS games and a healthy respect and appreciation for sport...and eSport).

The other outcome is that they may think it looks neat, and may even decide to invest some time with it, but ultimately fail to see the longevity of the game, lacking the motivation to play on alone and/or the courage to try and sell it to others... eventually losing faith to the point of 'letting it go' (in favour of whatever flashy game is compatible with their feedback loop of dependent/interdependent praise and pleasure-seeking/risk-taking behaviours).

The good news is, everyone is coming back.

Personally, I've managed to convince a few of my close friends to play briefly (for months) but have since lost them to IRL commitments and League of Legends. But, I'm proud to say I have managed to demonstrate that Urban Terror is, indisputably the best FPS game, to at least one person, and probably several others who still play League of Legends... and Overwatch... and CS:GO...

But, even for those who still have serious IRL priorities and commitments which prevent them from pursuing an eSports career, FPS games are still very popular, and very fun. So naturally, I think it's only a matter of time before people really begin to figure out the gimmicks of 'situational' advantages given to 'special' items and characters and begin to seek and desire the pure, fundamental gameplay of a game like CS (which is REALLY what they wanted all along, despite participating in mindless marketing tactics and going along with bullshit updates).

Okay, story games are legit.

Bottom Line: If someone can appreciate the eSport appeal as well as the Fun-factor of CS, they are probably aware of other FPS games... which may be faster... but maybe not Urban Terror... UNTIL... Urban Terror is released on steam and is received in the same fashion/manner in which CS:GO was. And, even if it's bumpy at first, I hope, as I'm sure we all do, that Urban Terror: Resurgence will be a big hit someday. #believe #fingers-crossed

PS: Nice post beautifulNihilist, you summed up all of this thread in 7 sentences. :P

PPS: I'm sorry I left for a while, especially after we finally got the anti-cheat we so desperately needed. I felt I had to prioritize my social life and education for a time... I definitely could have fit UrT into my life, and I chose not to... and I'll regret this decision always. But, the good news is: there are more people like me out there who know UrT, love UrT and who are counting the days until UrT:R (is this a thing yet?) is released!! (Despite having no idea of timeframe whatsoever. This means you have proof of having succeeded in creating a game so great that there are loyal players who I imagine are much like myself, and will never go away.)

This post has been edited by Vortex2: 14 March 2017 - 06:22 PM

[FS Frankie V]

Vortex2, on 13 March 2017 - 03:36 AM, said:

Stuff!!!

Well your preaching to the choir bro. :D

To make an offer to make use of your super powers as to the gift of gab feel free to write up a wall of text and if you send it my way I'll be happy to post it on my personal UrT blog. ;)

[Vortex2]

I'm sorry for writing so much!

[FS Frankie V]

Vortex2, on 13 March 2017 - 07:14 AM, said:

I'm sorry for writing so much!

LOL

On the contrary thanks for providing the free content. A bit of drama adds a few coins to our development fund. ;)

[Ikslorin]

Frankie V, on 13 March 2017 - 01:47 AM, said:

mail bombing TotalBiscuit that he should do a “Lets Play” or a “WTF” would be far easier to do and have a much larger impact than moving furniture around would have.

Do not mail bomb TotalBiscuit. He does not take request, and if anything he will be less inclined to look at a game, if it was attempted to shove him in that direction by a shower of emails.

What should be done, is that Frozen Sand should send an email like other developers with "keys". Since it's a free game, it would then only contain the game explained in a few lines and asking for coverage. He actually has already mentioned this game once on The Cooptional Podcast, so he does know it exists, but is of course not keeping track. So, by getting on his todo-list, he may be interested enough to take a look at it.
Furthermore, since most of his impromptu discoveries is through the release section of the Cooptional Podcast, it should also be attempted to be put on the GiantBomb release list upon release. No matter if he actually is going to do a "WTF is..." there will still be the exposure during the end of said episode.

This post has been edited by Ikslorin: 14 March 2017 - 08:30 AM