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#1 Guest_Perineum

Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM

Hey dudes

I've been reading lots of things about hacks. Most recently on the 'Get Legit Bro' topic.

Whether it be the cheaters themselves, the absolute sin of even possessing hacks, or just flat out the blatant refusal to have anything at all to do with them at all.

I think this is the wrong attitude. But I understand that FS officials can't be seen to have any other view as things can be misunderstood by simple people.

One guy in the topic aforementioned said this:

"Same if a server admin use it to look at the demo (and, stop that bullshit, it's of course more efficient to use a real cheat than that shownormals command, it's just logic¦ in all FPS I know, when people look at a demo for cheat, they use themselves a cheat because that's the closer they can go"

The reply he got was abuse and then told that toggling shownormals is all you need.

What bullshit. Sure that might give you the ability to (barely) see thru walls. Does it show when the enemy (or part of the enemy) is visible or behind a wall? Nope. Running a wall-hack whilst watching the demo will. And loads of other benefits that I'm not going to get into.

My point is this. Who's the best person to catch a hacker? A hacker. This isn't my opinion, this is fact.

Who's the best person to hire to make ur network or whatever impenetrable? The dude who is the best at penetrating systems.

Why do you think they run courses on 'Certified Ethical Hacking'. Because if you teach someone everything about it they then know it's strengths and weaknesses, what to look out for in certain situations or perhaps the tell of a certain hack or exploit.

I could continue...it's basic commonsense (or so I thought).

Server admin should be 'trained' in the use of hacks and become proficient in using them as a 'cheater' trying to cheat without getting caught.
For example, how someones game-play changes when they are trying not to look at people thru walls. The difference is huge and very noticeable if you know what to look for. Or perhaps the techniques you would use to fly under the radar like an aimbots smooth function or maybe it's height or fov settings.

Not to mention the time and effort server admin go thru reviewing demos over and over only for it to be 'inconclusive', or the cheater in question comes up with a bullshit excuse that you can't prove otherwise.

If you trust your admin with their given permissions or rcon to ur server or whatever why would you not trust them to learn and become proficient at using hacks but not use them improperly. Who can you trust then to do this?

Oh I know! Let's find someone who is the cleanest guy out there who's never used a hack in his life and goes to church on sundays. Let's get him to be our designated cheater catcher!

Seriously? Wake up.

While you are still going on about anti-cheats that never arrive we are stuck doing the hard yards and manually catching the fuckers, which is a shit shit job. We need every advantage at our disposal and the people we are fighting against don't obey any rules or moral standards so why should we to catch them? Instead you want to cripple us and judge the use of hacks to CATCH HACKERS. It isn't necessarily the hack that's terrible, it's people using them to cheat. So wouldn't using them in a positive way be a positive thing?

I'd be great if we could actually discuss this in a somewhat pleasant respectful manner.

This post has been edited by Perineum: 02 January 2019 - 08:14 AM



#3 User is offline   Iye Icon

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 03:14 PM

Alright. Time for some long reply. I will go through your post step by step and then give a summary of my stance to your proposal in the end.

Here we go!

View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

I've been reading lots of things about hacks. Most recently on the 'Get Legit Bro' topic.

Link please? I cant seem to find this topic.

View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

But I understand that FS officials can't be seen to have any other view as things can be misunderstood by simple people.

I dont fully understand you here. Do you mean to say that FS keeps down the discussion on cheats, because they fear it to be missunderstood by others? Or because they misunderstand it themselfs?


View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

[some quote from a topic i cant find]
The reply he got was abuse and then told that toggling shownormals is all you need.

Obligatory "link please", for any form of context on the original quote as well as the reply.
I do actually follow all topics on this, cant cant seem to remember either this discussion or any actual abuse, that was more harshly worded than parts of your post.


View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

What bullshit. Sure that might give you the ability to (barely) see thru walls.
Does it show when the enemy (or part of the enemy) is visible or behind a wall? Nope.
[..]
And loads of other benefits that I'm not going to get into.

I wouldnt call it barely. Its more than enough to tell where player models are.
If you played the map basically once, you can easily tell if a player would be obscured or not. Sure this ability gets worse the more tris a map has in that area, yet it remains.

Long story short, it probably looks prettier (i have no idea how good WHs for UrT look) if you have a proper wallhack compared to shownormals. Granted. But none of this is really neccessary to see through walls.

View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

My point is this. Who's the best person to catch a hacker? A hacker. This isn't my opinion, this is fact.
[..]
I could continue...it's basic commonsense (or so I thought).

All of this is true, to an extend. To put a simply analogy, the untrained security guard just staring at his camera feed can catch an thief, without knowing how to break into the object himself. My point here is that while surely helpfull, it by no means is necessary to be a hacker yourself.
Additonally, for a pen tester there is the obvious point that once he finds something someone else can with certainty verify it actually works. For cheaters, you dont have that. The subjective component in the judjement remains.

View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

Server admin should be 'trained' in the use of hacks and become proficient in using them as a 'cheater' trying to cheat without getting caught.
For example, how someones game-play changes when they are trying not to look at people thru walls. The difference is huge and very noticeable if you know what to look for. Or perhaps the techniques you would use to fly under the radar like an aimbots smooth function or maybe it's height or fov settings.

But how do you propose to do this? Sure, i can already tell some behaviour of cheaters apart from really good players, but where does this start, where does it stop?
Sorry for my bad spelling - I am still asleep. :)

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#4 User is offline   Iye Icon

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 03:18 PM

View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

Not to mention the time and effort server admin go thru reviewing demos over and over only for it to be 'inconclusive', or the cheater in question comes up with a bullshit excuse that you can't prove otherwise.

It turns out, not everything is prove of what you want it to be. Me sitting infront of a bank for 2 weeks straight watching it, does most definetly not prove i robbed it. It might be suspicious, but thats about it. And i have not heard of any cheater who was not convicted soley due to an excuse they came up with.

View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

If you trust your admin with their given permissions or rcon to ur server or whatever why would you not trust them to learn and become proficient at using hacks but not use them improperly. Who can you trust then to do this?

Well, server owners can control what an admin does with their rcon access. There is a difference here.

View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

Oh I know! Let's find someone who is the cleanest guy out there who's never used a hack in his life and goes to church on sundays. Let's get him to be our designated cheater catcher!

Again, see the analogy above. If tha clean guy was an amazing player himself and knew he didnt cheat, i would actually prefer him over a mediocre hacker as a judge. Simply because he can tell that something "is possibly without cheats".


View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

While you are still going on about anti-cheats that never arrive we are stuck doing the hard yards and manually catching the fuckers, which is a shit shit job.

Who? When? Where? I dont know of any post where anyone said any form of AC would be comming to UrT4. In fact, i do repeatedly tell ppl it (most likely) wont.

View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

Instead you want to cripple us and judge the use of hacks to CATCH HACKERS. It isn't necessarily the hack that's terrible, it's people using them to cheat. So wouldn't using them in a positive way be a positive thing?

Who wants to do that? What gave you that expression? As expressed above, i dont think you need to be a good hacker yourself to tell another good hacker. At some point in the top X that might become true,

View PostPerineum, on 02 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

I'd be great if we could actually discuss this in a somewhat pleasant respectful manner.

Considering some of your passive agreesive wording, i have my doubts about this. Dont take this the wrong way, i dont care as long as we stay within the rules. A strong oppinion would be best expressed strongly after all.



Now, to my view on what you seem to be proposing. It surely has some merit, following the arguments you layed out. So i will just list my, if you like, doubts, about it:
  • Its basically something every serer owner/admin has to decide for themselfs.
  • It comes down to time investment again. Playing around with an a hack yourself for a few hours really doesnt tell you much about the behaviour of the type of really good cheater you are trying to catch with this.
  • It wouldnt form conclusive evidence. Nor would any other method. In fact, it might be more error prone, due to the trust you then place in that white hats judjement.

Sorry for my bad spelling - I am still asleep. :)

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#5 Guest_Perineum

Posted 02 January 2019 - 07:44 PM

Firstly, good on ya for taking the time to reply to my post so thoroughly. Tbh I expected a ban on the spot or very least just politely told to *@!# off. I really appreciate it so thankyou.

I can't work out the multi-quote thing so I'll just have to reply in order.

https://www.urbanter...675#entry347675 - Is the link to the other page (I really only read page 49)

The post I was referring to was by 'shoushou', and the replies that infuriated me came from 'diRf!Nikki', '|WC|Father Goose', and then over on page 50 '|hYd|Halligan'. I was too annoyed to read further. Now admittedly they aren't officials but they are pretty much stating the general consensus regarding hacks.

What I meant by FS officials can't be seen to have any other view than 'hacks are bad' is because the general pubic will misinterpret anything else.
If FS said 'hacks are bad unless used by admin in a positive way then it's ok' people would just go 'omg FS just said hacks are ok'...and therein lies that issue.

I will agree a WH is not necessary to see thru walls when watching a demo, but it is a hell of a lot easier to see and the body parts visible light up a bright pink - so it's very easy to see if that person could see them or not.

So yes, the point 'v3nd3tta' made when saying "a "cheat" can see nothing else than you via r_showtris or r_shownormals can see in the demo perspective" can't be argued with, but when ur trying to see shit happening on the screen shownormals is painful.

How do I propose to get server admin trained? I came up with the solution last night after my post here that would both satisfy my needs for the admin to be trained and wouldn't require hacks to be on people PCs and potentially knowing 'too much' - meaning there is no benefit to them knowing where to find the hacks or how to install them.

So....the solution I think is a series of tutorials I could make in game using a screen recording program to demo - in this case I have bought 'Action!' it seems really good - and run thru each 'important topic' of hacks or their use. I am using Action! as it records the screen externally to the game therefore records the WH too.

When I say suspected cheats getting off on bullshit excuses I mean things like, "I was in vent/mumble/discord and my team mates told me where you were", or "I was just messing about and practicing my pre-firing" or whatever.
Bullshit excuses that COULD be true but 95% wouldn't be. However you can't prove otherwise and they go free.

When you say "If tha clean guy was an amazing player himself and knew he didnt cheat, i would actually prefer him over a mediocre hacker as a judge. Simply because he can tell that something "is possibly without cheats" ", I agree to a point. Sure the amazing guy knows what is possible and what's not, but the judge wouldn't be a mediocre hacker - it would be a team of experienced admins that had gotten 'training' in hacks. That imo is the best possible team you could have reviewing dodgy shit.

I mentioned anti-cheat...I haven't been around for a long time and there was talk of it just before I took my leave. So that was a slightly outdated comment it seems...


On an AWESOME side note, this screen recording program could have big benefits when used elsewhere couldn't it?? I'm pretty sure it can take screenshots as well - just like the old Punkbuster screenshots.
It could be implemented in competitions or leagues where demos are already being auto recorded and uploaded so using this instead should be no issue for people and it's very simple to use. No performance drop in game, auto uploads, live streaming and the list goes on.
This would guarantee 100% Wallhack free games. Don't know about you but I think that is huge. Admittedly it doesn't help any more than the UrT demos in regard to the aimbot but we can work on that.

Thanks again for taking the time to chat mate. <3

This post has been edited by Perineum: 02 January 2019 - 07:52 PM


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#6 Guest_Perineum

Posted 02 January 2019 - 10:35 PM

How to hack anyone

If you are on a laptop you can take out your battery and microwave it for 13:37.
When it's done put it back in your laptop and make sure to charge it all the way.
After that you will have linux installed on your computer and from there you just type in the name of the person you want to hack and you will get their password.

If you are on a desktop you do the same thing but instead of your laptop battery you microwave your keyboard and mouse.

If you are on mac it wont work, nothing works on mac.



just for a laugh :)

This post has been edited by Perineum: 02 January 2019 - 10:36 PM



#8 User is offline   bloodlock Icon

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 03:50 AM

I was searching for my nick on the forums, then I've found this: https://www.urbanter...dlock-the-movie
Yes, vid, quality isn't the best. Yes, half of it is me shooting at random players on a pub server. And yes, FG was really convinced I was hacking... I wasn't even that good...

And no, I was not hacking, never did. I actually enjoyed when some hacker popped up on the server to get some kills on the freaking bastard.

Back there aimbots where not perfect, so with a trained hand and some map awareness you could win against noobs using hacks...

I'm getting old, I don't have the same reaction speed I had, and got an injury on my right hand... I lost all the FPS mojo I had. So.. you'r heads are safe now... Posted Image

Sorry... I had to talk about that funny moment of my UrT odyssey... :P

there is no knowledge that is not power...

#9 User is offline   Makeurtgreatagain Icon

Posted 25 July 2019 - 03:01 AM

Morons with rcon and no skill

welcome to every online game ever

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