[Rayne]

theRipper, on 11 August 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:

<wishes he had joined the cmm startup team when it was offered xD

I don't remember anyone taking the offer off the table. And i do need someone to administrate that server.
But let's keep our business for the CMM site and PM's shall we.

Painting with lights is the main topic here.

This post has been edited by Rayne: 11 August 2011 - 04:00 PM

[FS Frankie V]

cec., on 11 August 2011 - 01:54 PM, said:

Thank you, Frankie :) Can you show us a screenshot of the map in Radiant? I don't know if I got everything all right, _how_ exactly you are doing this.

Oh boy that’s probably the last thing I want to do. Presenting an idea based on theory as being the right way is not a very good idea. As a mater of fact I’m assuming that in some areas based on context that I’m 100% wrong.

The ideals of an HD map is not based on the needs of changing the process of creation but the need for reexamination of a process as it relates to player model visibility no longer being an issue (we hope).

[ValkoVer]

What about day maps? Light can be "painted" on them too?

[FS Frankie V]

ValkoVer, on 11 August 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:

What about day maps? Light can be "painted" on them too?

Well to steal a movie line “You don’t think that’s real air you’re breathing?”

The same idea applies with in our Matrix that lights are not real beyond the effect that they create and what should be looked into and considered is the level of output. As I found out the other day r_lightdensity is your friend and helps a lot in the area of lighting balance that does not blow out the shadowing effect.

As someone mentioned ;) the goal is to get back to making things look a bit more natural and night or day the principles of painting with lights can still be applied. To be honest it’s not even that new or original idea as it has been used in the past in more practical applications that did not have the types of lighting systems we have today.

[FS HappyDay]

First of all, thanks a lot Frankie!

I've got two questions:

• Did I get this right, you're first lighting the map and then applying the textures?
  
• It seems like the map is build with brushes. That reminded me of a post by BladeKiller a while ago, suggesting to build whole map as ase models (link). Any comments on that? Is there one approach superior over the other?

[FS Frankie V]

Happyday, on 11 August 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

First of all, thanks a lot Frankie!

I've got two questions:

• Did I get this right, you're first lighting the map and then applying the textures?
  
• It seems like the map is build with brushes. That reminded me of a post by BladeKiller a while ago, suggesting to build whole map as ase models (link). Any comments on that? Is there one approach superior over the other?

Lets answer the two questions with one.

My current experience level with gtkradiant = 0
My current experience level with 3ds Max = My Kung Fu is strong.

That being said every building and model you saw in the video was done using 3ds Max and exported to ase and then imported into gtk.

Inside of 3ds Max you “must” first establish relative scale by laying out the map using proxies that represents the total volume of the area in that you wish to cover and what works well is to use real world values of 1 = 1 inch and then add 10%.

Once I had everything laid out in world space I then exported each of the individual components to be used as an x-reference and worked on each of the model as an individual file. SOP for building architecture based scenes, as you don’t run into data overload or editor lag problems. Once your ready to render you only need to x-reference in all of the individual elements along with their lighting rig and your good to go.

In this case.

I do a pre lighting rig on the proxy to get an over all sense of the of lighting I want and since normal and spec maps are light reactive it’s a good idea to have some kind of lighting in place to make sure that the output levels are not higher than they need to be.

I then hunt down the textures I need and apply them in creative ways then use Crazy Bump you make a normal/bump and spec map from the image. Crazy Bump for this purpose is ok to use as a place holder but unless you are reallllly happy with the result should be used as more of a place holder as more complex maps can add a lot of noise.

Of course at the same time I add the texture path name as required and copy the master textures to the game directory

What I have then is a single lego block that I already know how it will look as I now had a bit of experiences of what the map will look like in relationship to the completed model. This of course is where the experience comes in and no there is no superior approach over another just a predictable result.

In GTK I then import the lego blocks and set up the clipping that BK mentioned and the lighting elements as per the reference I did in 3ds Max. Since the clipping will always match the model, in most cases, I then only need to update the x-reference model and do an update witch updates all of the other elements that is x-referenced back to the other models.

As for numbers I’m still in the process in figuring out what’s going on but BK is for sure proven right that the performance levels between the two the all ase only map has a lot of the advantages and the current map in the video achieves a full 126 fps rock solid (screwed up by screen capture software) and the map compile time is twenty minutes.

Personally I don’t know if this is normal or not but a lot of my conversations with BK usually start with “that’s strange” ;)

[Rayne]

Frankie V, on 12 August 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

I do a pre lighting rig on the proxy to get an over all sense of the of lighting I want and since normal and spec maps are light reactive it’s a good idea to have some kind of lighting in place to make sure that the output levels are not higher than they need to be.

I then hunt down the textures I need and apply them in creative ways then use Crazy Bump you make a normal/bump and spec map from the image. Crazy Bump for this purpose is ok to use as a place holder but unless you are reallllly happy with the result should be used as more of a place holder as more complex maps can add a lot of noise.

The pre lighting you mention are those four 3000 by 3000 spotlights?
I made a small test map last night to test this technique and that big spotlight basically added a level of minimum light to the map. With an exception that unlike of _minlight in worldspawn like this all the specular maps reacted to the light.
The effect was quite subtle but present.

Where did you place the target_position entity for the main light. In the lowest point of the area, directly under the light entity...?

I use crazybump to generate normal maps only, i prefer to create _b maps on my own as they should be more precise when parallax mapping and CB usually makes ridiculous _b maps that make very little sense to me and usually lead to a horrible noisy result.
So if i want to add a window (like the one you saw on the screen shot i sent you) i generate several _n maps, cut out the parts i need and then put it back together in photoshop.
That way i have maximum control over the amount of details and overall effect.

How do you make yours.

[FS Frankie V]

Yes the spotlights I use to set the base level lighting is 3000 radius with a value of 3000. I did this in large part to avoid the use of ambient lighting which tends to leach off a fair amount of texture detail as well can effect the spec mapping on a global scale. I’m aware that there is more than one way to accomplish the same effects but Blade Killers use of “lots” of spot lights in Tombs has proven that this is the best way to maintain a high level of control that one tends to loss using a procedural solution.

It’s not a must do but spec and normal/bump maps are light reactive and if the plan is to use then it’s a good idea to reserve the spot so to speak by applying a default texture with these elements already in it instead of using the ever popular missing texture default.

With in a context though you may have noticed at the end of the video in the jail cell area the difference between the light element hitting the wall with no shader spec or normal and the cell area with just the default created a much better sense of use of space verses a flat surface that looks dull and uninteresting.

As for light position I still need to talk to Peter about lightmaps in general but once again they are not real lights so they don’t behave the same way based on the distance from the element and the target so the location of a target or spot light does not matter as the effect is produced from the location of the target outwards and the larger the radius the higher the light level needs to be to maintain the desired levels.

It’s kind of like if you take a cup of water, spilled on the floor, the density of the water becomes less as it moves out from the center. It’s an effect that has no real relationship as to what created it in the first place.

By windows and context I assume you mean window glass?

I use spec and normal maps on them as well and I have found with the right kind of shader and balancing the output levels I was able to achieve the ripple effect common of float glass.

There is a problem though that the opacity shader I want to use does not handle gradients that well and tends to flash at the edges and causes other elements with opacity behind it not to render correctly. My vote for the next map addition would be for proper a gradient/opacity map as you can then do some real cool stuff with fabrics

Last how do I make my glass?

Most common problem I’ve seen in paneled windows is the tendency to planer map the individual panels and then apply a single texture to it. This gives the window a checker board effect and not a natural reflection.

How I make the glass is to make a brush the size of the window, planer map the texture to fit, then use the clipper tool (love it by the way) and cut out the separate panels so they fit the window. To bad the shader does not work right else you can get this real nice warping effect common of most glass.

After that I can see the use of Photoshop to paint dirt and distortions directly into the diffused map but something that I have my eye on is 3ds Max’s view port canvas that allows you to paint directly on the object in 3ds space.

To push it further once the map is completed I plan to uvmap out the entire ground plane and hand paint the over shadow between the horizontal ground and vertical buildings. (but need to see what’s left in the texture budget first)

[uJ|Driller]

/sidetopic

Hi, i dont know if this is right place for it (it about lights), but i got question about the shadow on the ground, of a player.

Now it is like this.

You stand and you look down and see your own shadow: circle, dark
You jump up: you see same size cicle, but the higher the less dark it is
You crouch, and the shadow under the player stays exact the same as when you stand.

I never found it artistic.


Is it possible (in urthd) to change size of shadow?
(in air smaller, and crouching bigger, than when you stand)
And also that when you crouch it gets darker than when you stand

/if discussed before, sry -)

This post has been edited by Driller: 13 August 2011 - 02:39 AM

[FS Frankie V]

Shadows is a lighting question.

Current md5 player models do not have shadows and yet to be done.