[tub (old)]

With a lot of people upgrading for d3 and hl2 17k isn't too bad. Most ET players are running on pretty decent hardware. You have to remember that when q3 came out the tnt2u was the hotest card on the market. A lot has changed since then.

Invis is right though that even a much more complicated map will run far better in hl2 that a simpler one in q3. Thats simply the way engine optimisations go. If you took exactly the same geometry from a q3 map back to q2 it would be far slower as well.

[Hybridesque (old)]

I'm aware that these newer engines are more efficient for a given load, 27 threw a load of numbers at me a couple of weeks ago, about what the engines are capable with his R9800 Pro. Q3/RTCW/ET aren't T&L engines like HL2/Doom III is. The only variant of the Q3 engine that is T&L is CoD.

The aspect about collision is also true, the amount of memory required for what Urban Terror uses for collision is pretty severe, but it's on the same level as what Doom III currently uses.

The main problem with current maps I believe is that they are way too open. There is way too much possibility for engine to draw way too much polys because the hinting isn't done properly or the layout isn't conducive to reducing the r_speeds. The number of times I see a first effort from a new mapper and seeing that is more open than the desert gives me a real headache, but some advice to the mapper there usually goes a long way to help optimise the map.

|NV|S: I see your mentioning fillrate a bit, but I assume that you're aware that a regular texture is the texture + lightmap pass. Fillrate is probably the most damaging thing in terms for framerate and I'd agree on that. Just increase the number of passes on a texture from 2 to 3 can have a lot of impact, especially on fillrate limited cards. GF2MX400 has only 2 texture pipelines so can get dessimated rather easily once you get beyond the texture+lightmap combo and start to crank the shader passes.

Reducing the texture sizes will help on graphics cards that have low bandwidth, again using my GF2MX400 as an example, it is using 128-bit SDR Memory at 166MHz, so it only has about 2500Mb/sec bandwidth and really is insignificant when you start comparing to the current DirectX 9.0 cards that are on the market at present. I have to run my machine in Urban Terror with r_picmip 1 to reduce the load on the memory bandwidth of the GPU.

On a good note, my 2nd hand Barton 2800+ (via one of the fellahs from Aardvark clan) should be arriving today, and I'll be buying an Abit NF7 and PQI 1Gb PC3200 DDR TurboMemory Dual Channel Kit (2 x 512Mb) w/ Platinum Heatspreader (2-3-3-6) to partner it. I'm keeping my GF2MX 400 64Mb for the time being but the extra memory (not to mention the extra speed of it) and CPU grunt should help massively since Q3 isn't T&L enabled. Quizzing 27 about it, he says that it would enable me to move from 800x600 to 1024x768 with it, except for when I'm fillrate limited.

[|NV|S (old)]

[quote name='"Hybridesque"]The main problem with current maps I believe is that they are way too open. There is way too much possibility for engine to draw way too much polys because the hinting isn't done properly or the layout isn't conducive to reducing the r_speeds. The number of times I see a first effort from a new mapper and seeing that is more open than the desert gives me a real headache' date=' but some advice to the mapper there usually goes a long way to help optimise the map.[/quote']

I would agree that with new level designers limited knowledge of the engine and its capablities/limitations is a problem, although it pales in comparison to poor design. 18k tris in a spawn area where no fighting can occour is quite ok....but 5k tris in a major chokepoint area were at any given time where 10 people can be fighting and dropping weapons is worse, and if you have played Laneway you know what I mean.

Some really bad examples of poor layout where fighting seems to funnel and occur in one place is ut_metro, ut_sleima, ut_laneway2 and ut_streets2. Too many enemies are potentially in view at once, and you can basically see the entire level. Those maps really are clunkers when it comes to performance....the worst of those being sleima and Metro because those 2 both are fat on the vert and texture end.

The best advice I can give to any new level designer is before he ever lays his first brush is to learn the rendering engine, and some basic optimazation. Those 2 things alone will take a level designer way farther than any other skill he can glean.

As for hinting, if it were an exact science....I would agree with you that learning it was important. But as it is the Worst system I have seen for portaling, I cant get behind it. There is no exact in hinting, its all experimentation.

Here is a peek at ut_crenshaw and its http://www.s8s.info/...shots/hints.jpg hinting.


With all of ut_crenshaw's crazy textures, insane lightmaps, and fat map objects I was still able to reel in the FPS and properly place chokepoints as not to kill FPS and to getut_crenshaw into a passable level for competiton. As for the Gameplay aspect of the layout.....well thats always subject to interpretation.

[Hybridesque (old)]

That's the lesson I have to keep dishing out. Understanding the limitations of the Quake III Arena engine, and how it renders and what you can do to make life easier for yourself.

Most new mappers would make a map 1/3rd the scale of Europe. I keep trying to nip that tendency in the bud, but I have to balance that with the risk of putting the person off mapping. Every mapper thinking of picking up Radiant should have to read SweetnutZ' informationals and pass a quiz on it before being allowed to use Radiant. That is my opinion.

Okay, there are few mappers that follow that methodlogy when it comes to mapping and are able to get away with it, but you need to be really experienced & skilled in order to pull it off.

With one of my projects, I'm being absolutely ruthless with caulk-hull and using various layout tricks to keep the poly count ridiculously low (sub 10k), so I can afford to add detail later.

You should write a tutorial for budding mappers at Urban Terror Map Depot perhaps.

[tub (old)]

Yeah Sweetnutzs Layout guide is something the every mapper should read twice. Same with DaveJs common sense vs level design artice. Good gameplay is an art in itself and is very hard to get correct. Even the best mappers have duds now and then.

On the other side I do think its easy for people to get caught up in the technical side of things when offen it doesn't really matter. Silema proves the point that a map can have rediculuosly high r_speeds but still be insanley popular.

[Hybridesque (old)]

That's why I describe myself as a map technician and not as a designer at the moment, because I don't feel I've made that leap just yet. The gameplay is what makes Sliema, and what I'd have to preserve for Sliema 2.

[|NV|S (old)]

[quote name='"Hybridesque"]That's why I describe myself as a map technician and not as a designer at the moment' date=' because I don't feel I've made that leap just yet. The gameplay is what makes Sliema, and what I'd have to preserve for Sliema 2.[/quote']

I think that the element that made sliema so popular was that it was fun, and what made it so fun was the open feel of it. which in essence was made it a horrible map performance wise.....so its a catch22.

Yes it was popular, but it was also a server cleaner. There was a love-hate relationship with it. If you had a rock solid rig, it was a fav, if you were chuggin at 20fps, it was ghey-all-day and you went to look for a server with abbey/casa/docks (which have been a staple of this mod for ages until smaller maps like Algiers and Turnpike came along.

Now, for those with a short attention span....please note the Number in RED


http://www.s8s.info/...s/sliemafps.jpg

[Hybridesque (old)]

Duly noted, I know this is one of the MAJOR issues of the map (as BladeKiller keeps reminding me). I'm currently at the stage of rebuilding the map from the decompile source. I created a new map file for this as decompile job is often messy.

I've deployed portal skies so I could use a tighter caulk-hull setup as well, and plus give a better impression of surrounding the map in water than what Ozedood did. As for anything else on the map? I'm a bit snowed under with coursework at university currently and I'm just trying to get those rattled off.

[Hybridesque (old)]

Quote

Yeah Sweetnutzs Layout guide is something the every mapper should read twice. Same with DaveJs common sense vs level design artice. Good gameplay is an art in itself and is very hard to get correct. Even the best mappers have duds now and then.

Thanks for the link, it seems a good read.

Edit: Oh dear... it uses EVIL games from Valve as examples. That won't do.

[tub (old)]

CS maps are the best in the business when it comes to ts type gameplay. They have millions of hours of play testing, and they have been selected from thousands of high quality 3rd party maps. If you want to learn good gameplay and architecture then you can't go far wrong by studying them.