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Optional TK'd respawn penalty in wave Rate Topic: -----

#11 User is offline   Slasher Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:36 PM

View PostBludShoT, on 14 December 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Non-wave is much more tactical and requires much better team play. In wave you all spawn with your teammates, so it's a simple matter of spawning and bam you are with your team. In non-wave you need to keep track of 6 different enemy locations and respawns. Unless you play close attention (and even if you do), enemies may spawn at any time, unlike wave where you know exactly when they will spawn. So choosing when to attack or hold or defend is a much more complicated issue in non-wave. Also the players must work at map control and meeting up with each other in a way you never have to do in wave. Non-wave CTF is simply a superior game type, while wave is just dumbed-down ctf


This is your opinion only and I don't think you hold any truth for that matter. I played both at high level enough to have a good opinion on this. Both demands skills but in different way and you can't really say that one is superior to another. It's simply different and just a matter of preference. If you think waves CTF don't require teamwork and is as simple as 'bam, you spawn with all your teammates", then you are -perdon me- stupid. I knew NA players who were like you and once they learned how to actually played waves, really loved it. (and still loved both style) I played in URTLA too with a really decent team and even them didn't have the teamwork compared to euro teams.

Option or not, f2 as I don't know anyone who would like to play waves with tk penalty, it honestly makes absolutely no sense... and if non waves is so superior to waves then I don't even know why you care about waves in the first place.

This post has been edited by Slasher: 14 December 2012 - 10:38 PM


#12 User is offline   n1n Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:37 PM

i don't like wave, nor play it if i don't have to. yes r00t, it's challenging and nice use of timing skills and I also very appreciate the aspect of TEAMPLAY (which was for me personally always a fundamental value of UrT). But (yeah there always is a but) the indisputable fact is that wave is being exploited to it's limits.
taking the TK at 1s to spawn issue is just one of the things, add to this unbalanced teams and you have on team spamming the other with nades and smokes at 1s to spawn.
as a server admin i've noticed the gameplay becomes drastically unbalanced at wave and the weaker team at one point just loses it's interest of trying to regain control and build up the score. take Algiers and blue team, usually it just ends up half of the blue team /quitting frustrated.

so, trying to get wave CTF into shape might be a nice idea, at least worth trying. Thats another F1 for BludShot ^^
<sXe>

#13 User is offline   BludShoT Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

View PostSlasher, on 14 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

It's simply different and just a matter of preference.


Yes, this is pretty much true.

I did say it was only my opinion on the matter, responding to people saying that wave is so much more tactical, when at best it might be as tactical? Also, wave is not slower than non wave. Non-wave these days is actually a bit too slow. But, it really depends on what you're talking about. Pub non-wave might be faster, but league non-wave is slower. League wave seems to be more like a constant push. But, then again, my experience is in SA, not Europe, so for all I know they do do a slower style there, but it would have to be insanely slow to be slower than non-wave league games. I guess when I say slow vs fast I'm talking about flag touches per minute or something.

Anyhow this thread is about adding a server side option, not changing all of wave. It shouldn't even be subject to people saying f1 or f2. It's about an option that's turned off by default. There's no reason to f2 it, because if you don't like it, you just don't use it. 2 people on FS already want it, so I'd say vote is over :p

#14 User is offline   Driller Icon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:49 AM

View PostBludShoT, on 14 December 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Anyhow this thread is about adding a server side option, not changing all of wave. It shouldn't even be subject to people saying f1 or f2. It's about an option that's turned off by default. There's no reason to f2 it, because if you don't like it, you just don't use it. 2 people on FS already want it, so I'd say vote is over :p


No matter the subject of this discussion, the above statement is very true!
Very very true (i think of a lot of jumpmode possibilities, like lock_mouse or nosprint etc but no need to bring that up), its valid for a lot of ideas Bludshot.

#15 User is offline   ObScUrE Icon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:43 AM

I think it's fine to have wave and non wave servers but adding an third modified type for wave servers makes it somewhat confusing, so it should be easy to see what kind of server someone is joining.

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#16 User is offline   Azle Icon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:41 PM

Hi,

Dude, where's the point in making two different modes more similar ? Let CTF wave be as it is. It's like wanting to change bomb mode by deleting the bomb feature so that it look more like TS...
By the way you don't get any penalty for killing yourslef with a grenade, only when you /kill, which if find great as it is. It adds a tactical perspective.

I agree CTF no-waves requires some team-play and skill aspects, but that doesn't necessarely means CTF wave doesn't required some aswell and is a dumb mode. In fact I'm pretty you know nothing about it.

Here's my point of view:

CTF no-wave:
Slow, brain, teamplay, good aim (but all that more similar as it is in TS mode)
Main goal: kill the opponent, to advance in the map. Eventually you cap the flag but really, your first goal is to kill, advance, kill, advance. And in the end you don't end up with many caps.

CTF wave:
Extremely fast, requires good aim, brain, teamplay, constant communication, constant concentration on the minimap & timers
Main goal: hit the right timings, get the flag

To conclude, I find the main goal of CTF wave more consonant with the name of the mode "Capture the Flag", that's why I like it better. But that's not a reason for me to propose to change CTF no-wave :p

This post has been edited by Azle: 15 December 2012 - 03:52 PM

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#17 User is offline   raylewis Icon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:11 PM

I don't think a server side option is out of line, but i don't really see what the point is with it. I'm pretty sure from a competition standpoint Europeans will defend tk'ing to the death, and North America just won't play wave ctf. Include the cvar if you'd like, however, I feel it will be a cvar that sits idle. It not like killing yourself or others to gain an advantage is unique to UrT. I can recall many games where you could see there was a definite advantage to suiciding or killing your teammate. Quake3/Quakelive ctf comes to mind where its always a pretty good move to kill yourself after you cap the flag, since you are probably low on health and are not in a good position stuck at your own flag as a runner.

#18 User is offline   ZephyR Icon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

Honestly I have no real opinion of TK'ing in match mode (regardless if devs consider it an exploit or not).
Suicide has always been allowed in q3 engine games (there is a reason that /kill is there) and it seems pointless to call it a feature or exploit because few select people have figured out another means to essentially accomplish the exact same thing.
People will always be highly divided on the issue, and really I see no problem with it from a game mechanics point of view.

In my opinion, the real problem comes with the flaw in CTF from both the Pub and Matchmode side.
Why the *@!# do both teams spawn at the same time and at the same interval?
Most maps are inherently uneven in CTF.
In pubs it makes no sense because you're more likely to only play one side of a map.
In matchmode it makes no sense because why the hell should I know exactly when the enemy spawns and is coming without putting in the effort to figure it out myself.

It seems far easier to create an asynchronous spawn time for both sides that start at a randomized starting time (0-<selected spawn interval>) and have a spawn interval suited for both teams depending on map choice.

This way:
1) You don't know what the initial spawn time counter is starting from (for your team or the enemies).
2) Relies on teamwork to get the spawn time and synch it with the match clock
3) Fixes inconsistencies of map layout on both pub and matchmode

This obviously still requires one additional fix:
1) Fixing the clock when joining in matchmode
Sometimes when you join in from a timeout or a substitution, the round/match clock doesn't always synch up properly.
Not sure if this is fixed in 4.2, but it happens in 4.1/4.1.1 occasionally.

#19 User is offline   Fenix Icon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:52 PM

View PostZephyR, on 15 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

This obviously still requires one additional fix:
1) Fixing the clock when joining in matchmode
Sometimes when you join in from a timeout or a substitution, the round/match clock doesn't always synch up properly.
Not sure if this is fixed in 4.2, but it happens in 4.1/4.1.1 occasionally.


That's already been fixed, a couple of releases ago ^^

#20 User is offline   Reflux Icon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostObScUrE, on 15 December 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

I think it's fine to have wave and non wave servers but adding an third modified type for wave servers makes it somewhat confusing, so it should be easy to see what kind of server someone is joining.

Not true. You have no idea until after joining that a server has friendly fire on or off, gravity set to 800 or not, what weapons are allowed or not. There are plenty of server side conditions that already exist in the game that you are not aware of until you join, begin playing, and then ask, "Is **** on?"


View PostAzle, on 15 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Hi,

Dude, where's the point in making two different modes more similar ? Let CTF wave be as it is. It's like wanting to change bomb mode by deleting the bomb feature so that it look more like TS...
By the way you don't get any penalty for killing yourslef with a grenade, only when you /kill, which if find great as it is. It adds a tactical perspective.

I agree CTF no-waves requires some team-play and skill aspects, but that doesn't necessarily means CTF wave doesn't required some as well and is a dumb mode. In fact I'm pretty you know nothing about it.

Here's my point of view:

CTF no-wave:
Slow, brain, team play, good aim (but all that more similar as it is in TS mode)
Main goal: kill the opponent, to advance in the map. Eventually you cap the flag but really, your first goal is to kill, advance, kill, advance. And in the end you don't end up with many caps.

CTF wave:
Extremely fast, requires good aim, brain, team play, constant communication, constant concentration on the minimap & timers
Main goal: hit the right timings, get the flag

To conclude, I find the main goal of CTF wave more consonant with the name of the mode "Capture the Flag", that's why I like it better. But that's not a reason for me to propose to change CTF no-wave :p

Bomb is TS, but with an alternate objective that far too many ignore. You win by eliminating the other team, not by detonating the bomb. Smells like TS to me.

CTF wave vs. non-wave? "Requires good aim" "Constant concentration on the minimap & timers"? Sounds like CTF regardless of wave or not.


View Postraylewis, on 15 December 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

It not like killing yourself or others to gain an advantage is unique to UrT. I can recall many games where you could see there was a definite advantage to suiciding or killing your teammate.

Like when your teammate is in the middle of a group of enemies and your thought is, "Kill 'em all" just to make sure the 3 or 4 enemies are eliminated. We call that a "tactical TK".


View PostBludShoT, on 14 December 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Anyhow this thread is about adding a server side option, not changing all of wave. It shouldn't even be subject to people saying f1 or f2. It's about an option that's turned off by default. There's no reason to f2 it, because if you don't like it, you just don't use it. 2 people on FS already want it, so I'd say vote is over :p
^^^^ F1 :)

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