[shoushou]

Just a small question FrankieV : Are those 12% hits disapering solved in the current 4.2.18 or does the problem stay present ?
I answered the rest of you message that does not directly mentionned gameplay balance in the topic about the beta, as it is more related to it.

So the left parts are the discussions about Mac11 and AK103 :

Quote

And believe it or not, MAC is actually a good weapon it has a very fast reload
If not the fastest and its fire rate is really fast! It shreds through people without kevlar
and needs a bit more skill to kill people with kevlar.

Quote

I could see increasing the rate of fire of the MAC-11 as a possible solution, or increasing its damage while decreasing its accuracy, but I agree that it is probably doomed to be a troll weapon.

Quote

The Mac11 was added to fill in a defensive hole in the CTF game type. The ideal is high rate of fire and short range for up close wet work. Not a suitable weapon, or intended, for TS type play or rushing.

I grouped the messages about the Mac11.
The Mac11 was added because devs feeled that there was a hole to fill in the CTF gameplay. But if you had asked, I don’t know, any CTF player who have played at least 2 matchs in league, even at lower level, you would have noticed that such hole never existed. I can’t provide you exact stats for CTF, but I’ll tell you about what I saw in matchs (and I’m probably the ones who saw most match in whole community) : there was no hole for a secondary in CTF, because secondaries are not used in CTF, because snipers are not used in CTF (because lack of efficiency, even the top UrT snipers can’t be efficient in CTF with a SR8), and Rifles don’t need any secondaries. Simple as that. If you do think that the Mac11 is better than LR300/M4 or even the Deagle, even if some particular CTF situation, then you have to learn how to play, even if that’s ironic.
But more than that, even if there was a lack of a secondary, which was not the case, in any gametype, the Mac11 is, in his current stats, the weaker rifle in the game, and the weakest weapon in the game if we exclude HK69 and Knife. This is not something that “I believe or not” to quote redsnappa, it’s straight facts based on stats. As long as you don’t take that in considerations, then you can’t solve it. Who care if the weapon reload faster, what matter is that the Kevlar shot, if I remember right, is 15% damages. What did you expect ?

Quote

100% AK helmet damage seems extremely unbalanced to me.
Not only against the LRM4300, but it removes the PSG completely.
The AK chews people to bits in 2 hits with no kevlar, which does happen in CTF games.

Quote

The amount of people that wear no kev in Competitive games is minimal, however i do believe 100% is a bit overkill, but perhaps somewhere between 70-90 would be more reasonable.

Quote

I like to camp the flag with the AK and hunt and kill the kev droppers. There are quite a few drops on Abbey and some other fast-cap finesse maps.
I think there would be less kevlar if we did not have the AK, I think the AK is a reason why kevlar is used.
People do not use the AK because people use kevlar. People use kevlar because otherwise someone will switch to the AK (no, that is not the only reason).
I'm not against upping the AK helmet damage another 10 points or so, 100 is not a good idea.

To answer it all :
You’re right, AK is a 2-torso shots weapons as long as you don’t wear a Kevlar. But you can’t base your balance on the supposition that people won’t wear Kevlar, as well as you can’t suppose people will always take their Knife in hand in order to jump : in order to balance, you have to base your judgment on the fact that people will take the good decisions, else you can conclude absolutely everything. When you’re saying people drop Kevlar in order to do a jump, you must be talking about non-experienced players in public, because the first thing you learn as an attacker while you start playing CTF in a team is that you have to kill the defenders before escaping, else it doesn’t work.
And here is the thing : every player in TS/BM wear a Kevlar in order to win. In CTF, that IS the same thing, there is no a single player who can win a CTF match as an attacker if he play versus players on same level than him without wearing a Kevlar, because the disadvantage is too much, and it doesn’t matter if the defenders are using AK or no : the reason people are wearing Kevlar is not to counter AK, it’s because you simply survive one more Kevlar hit to the main weapons.
As I mentioned, the goal of having a 100% helmet shot is to have an AK103 that people should use to aim the head instead of Kevlar. And why is 100% not to much ? Because it’s easier to get 3 Kevlar shot (100% damages) than 2 helmets. Simple as that. In order to compensate that, you could lower the others AK hits to the LR/M4 level, or even lower. Having same damages as MP5K (except the 100% helmet/head) could even be a solution.

This post has been edited by shoushou: 17 February 2014 - 01:33 PM

[wTf|beautifulNihilist]

I don't see any niche for the MAC11 to fill at all, personally. I can see taking it to a few different extremes and giving it one (Higher damage/ more spread, etc), but right now it's outclassed in all ways by the MP5. The MP5 is itself outclassed in all ways by the Beretta and a fast finger.

I think the AK should have a buff to helmet damage to 66 or above so that 1 helmet and 1 kevlar hit is fatal.
I also think the AK could use a firing speed buff to match 3 hits to the LRM4300's 4.
I don't think the spread of power between the LRM4300 and the AK is quite as distant as you have it, though there is a definite small advantage to the LRM4300 giving it just enough of an edge to be "the-single-greatest-weapon", and we can certainly tighten balance up a bit.


You have put a great deal of work and thought into this already, and the holes in what we have are evident.

100% helmet damage with the AK or any auto is just insane and I feel you should rethink what this would mean a little harder.
If you want 100% damage to fully armored targets in 1 hit, you need a scoped rifle.
That being said, the PSG could use a small fire-rate buff (like the PSG even exists in this setting, I know).

Balance will never ever be 100% unless the weapons are 100% the same, and even then. The LR300 is not three times as powerful as the M4, yet it is used at least as much more often.
At the highest levels of competition, you remove everything that is not the greatest idea from the playing field, including not using kevlar, and therefore using the AK... and all secondaries, and the HK69, and sometimes even sniper rifles.

The AK could use a slight buff to armored targets, but it's niche is NOT ARMORED TARGETS.
Your proposals to "balance" the 100% headshot damage are to remove the rest of the AK's characteristics. It sounds like what you want is a different weapon.

There are other ways to play this game than as hard as you can in competitive settings. While this is the place that balance needs to be held so as to not break things, you either have weapons that are too similar or a small couple of "the-only-viable-option" weapons and equipment.

SO not dismissing that balance could be improved.
Not sure about your methods.

This post has been edited by beautifulNihilist: 18 February 2014 - 01:14 AM

[dolphin]

I think the AK is fine how it is because of three reasons, which become very pronounced on high-population servers (non-competitive):

1. Much more bleeding damage/chance vs M4/LR300

2. Slower rate and much more damage per clip vs M4/LR300 - less ammo used

3. Because of good spread and high damage, it is very powerful vs clusters of people, in addition to long range tapping versatility



If it is buffed any, it risks becoming even more overused than LR since the LR at least has an equal counterpart (M4) for variety.

I agree though, the Mac 11 doesn't really fit in, other than being a "funny" weap. Theres already negev and mp5 for launching vast amounts of shots at a target

As long as the randomly jumping crosshair designed to "reduce luck" is canned, I think the game might survive.

This post has been edited by dolphin: 18 February 2014 - 06:35 AM

[[Sk&Bh]Txc]

Frankie V, on 13 February 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

...
With all things being equal both the client and server are now better synced as to expectations of all FPS type games be it COD,CS or BF, that as new players to Urban Terror, and not new to FPS, would recognize instantly as a basic skill requirement.

...

Does it need to be changed?

Well to keep the current players happy nothing needs to be changed at all but if the ideals as to increasing the number of players from our current player community can only be accomplished through action on our part then the first step is to introduce an acceptable expatiation that is not unique to Urban Terror, and is a requirement to relearn, that only continues to support a “learned” skill.
...

One might read it as you have failed developing Urban Terror .
Smells like desperation .
Urban Terror as a miserable clone , one of many .

DooM for instance back in the day became popular just by word of mouth .
There were the first days of internet & we are speaking for millions of players ...
And by word of mouth it is meant that not the developers did it , but the players who already knew about it .

Obviously there are too much hypocrites in that pathetic community too lazy to even the smallest deed in favour of what they claim to be a favourite game . Oh & yes , I almost forgot to inform you they are & spoilt .

One could suggest for more reasonable improve the quality of the current community
before to attempt to expand it .

It was said ''the gameplay is king'' , however kings can be turned into slaves , doesn't it sound nice - slaveking .

Yet one can speculate , if this is new trend , some interesting coincidences :

https://imageshack.com/i/10fpq5p

http://www.sinform.c...logotipo-CS.jpg

Nothing new those strange similarities are here for years .
So is it planned long time ago ? Hmm ...
& this is not the only suspicious thing ...

Well fair enough 14 years are too much for a videogame , don't you think ?
So we can say that 4.2 will be the final version or even not the last version there will be of 4.2 .

[tupp]

Since the only reason people take AK is against people with no kevlar, it shouldn't really be used that much in competitive play since everybody wears kevlar. If it's damage was upped to 57 no kevlar, 38 with kevlar (Like DE) people might use it more. Maybe helmet shots should be increased to 66 damage as well, depends i guess.

HK69 is HK69. Unless it gets a fuse selection (1.5, 2, 3, 4) seconds, it will stay as the 'keep bombing until you hit something' kind of weapon.

MAC11, as many people have said, should get a firerate increase. Make it super spammy and inaccurate, hit the flag carriers legs, whatever, just make it really fast.

SPAS needs damage, and I think that is already being dealt with..

PSG-1 will continue to not be used for the reason SR8 kills people with kevlar. One way to remedy this would make it do 100 damage against no kevlar, 100 to helmet, and 75 to kevlar.

Beretta shines when people don't wear helmets. Everyone wears helmets.

Glock does not shine. It is dull and bad. Needs armour piercing rounds (33 damage torso/kevlar no matter what) but is locked on burst fire and maybe then it would be a cool niche weapon.

Colt actually IS good, but people don't really appreciate the extra 3 ammo myself included. Maybe an accuracy increase would be in order.

Negev is/was/always will be a troll weapon. Could be changed by doing the same thing as MAC11 : Making it shoot even faster and less accurate. Would kill someone in the same time as lr300 if they hit all shots in torso