[cessquill]

Zenity, on 15 July 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Of course the flipside is that skilled players enjoy the feeling of complete dominance over weaker players, essentially becoming untouchable. But satisfying a small number of elite players at the expense of the majority of average players is generally not a recipe for success... Unfortunately the elite players tend to be the most vocal in community forums, which can skew perceptions quite dramatically. Striking the right balance in this regard is always one of the hardest parts of multiplayer game design, and it's something we need to tackle properly.

This. I've been playing for probably 8 years or so, but will never be all that good. I've been on servers where I've been absolutely slaughtered. I've appreciated that the people I'm playing against are in another class than me and I've moved on. I still play daily on servers where I'm normally mid-table if I'm lucky. I'll never get much beyond noob status - partly because i'm too casual/not competitive enough, and partly because I'm just not that good. If there wasn't a place to go where I wasn't mocked or holding people back I'd have jumped ship a long time ago. I don't know whether I'm in the masses, but I still enjoy this game and look forward to new developments.

[Magister]

This is why I love CTF so much.  I can be middle of the pack, not the best shooter on the server, but then I can make a huge impact on the game by knowing where to be at the exact right moment 8-) And for me that is a satisfying feeling.

This post has been edited by Magister: 15 July 2016 - 10:44 AM

[FS Zenity]

Magister, on 15 July 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

This is why I love CTF so much. I can be middle of the pack, not the best shooter on the server, but then I can make a huge impact on the game by knowing where to be at the exact right moment 8-) And for me that is a satisfying feeling.

Indeed, TS (and BM) is probably by far the most punishing game mode for weaker players. We'll be able to do a lot with gamemodes. Competitive requires game modes which are well balanced and allow for strategic depth. Accessibility requires game modes which aren't too punishing but still fun.

My gamemode related goals for HD are:

- Make CTF even better, because it's arguably our best game mode so far (e.g. by reducing the occurrence of cross-steal stalemates).

- Make TS better for public servers by solving the "hide and seek" problem especially on larger maps (e.g. by highlighting players on the map who haven't damaged anybody for a certain duration, or an escalation phase where all players are highlighted on the radar).

- Improve bomb mode by making it faster and more suitable for the game's pace (faster planting, etc).

- Add Domination as a fairly accessible mode that is very familiar and well balanced for competitive play.

- Improve TDM. It's already the easiest mode to play, but it's also boring as ****. There are ways to make it a lot more interesting with dynamic spawns and radar functions. TDM will never be a mode made for competition, but it would be great to have a solid version of it as an easy and enjoyable introduction to the game (and for when you just feel like fragging without engaging the brain).

- Add one or more game modes which capture the tension and free roaming essence of TS but add a soft objective to make the modes more suitable and balanced for high level competition. With the goal of eventually replacing TS completely for competitive play (I believe that TS should be avoided in competition for the same reasons TDM should be avoided).

Also I hope that we can encourage mainstream competitive UrT to use a mix of all competitive gamemodes (that would be CTF, DOM, BM, and the new mode(s) based on TS), similar to the recent nation cups. Our modes are easy enough strategically that I think it's most interesting if competitive players need to master them all, and this avoids the fragmentation issues we would get otherwise. I would also like to see public servers with mixed rotations, using the most suitable game modes for each map.

[[SQD]dynomite33]

Quote

- Improve bomb mode by making it faster and more suitable for the game's pace (faster planting, etc).

Will this include being able to stop planting? Currently once you start planting you cannot stop and that's where 90% of the kills happen. Blue team waits for the plant and then jumps out while Red is helpless

[FS Zenity]

dynomite33, on 15 July 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Will this include being able to stop planting? Currently once you start planting you cannot stop and that's where 90% of the kills happen. Blue team waits for the plant and then jumps out while Red is helpless

Nothing is for sure, this is just my personal thoughts and aims. But yes, that's what I'm talking about. These mechanics were developed for tactical shooters, and are IMO much too static for a game like Urban Terror.

[=SC=ringel]

Zenity, on 15 July 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

Nothing is for sure, this is just my personal thoughts and aims. But yes, that's what I'm talking about. These mechanics were developed for tactical shooters, and are IMO much too static for a game like Urban Terror.

I like the Idea! One of the most important parts of game designing is to make the player evolution circle as easy as possible.
What do I mean by that? Every game has a very segmented playerbase: noobs (first couple of weeks / months, depending on the frequency) which will become regulars or "sometimers" and in the end there are the competitive players.
UrT is very hard to learn for beginners: you have to be fast, aim good and have decent map knowledge - otherwise you will not be able to have fun. Since UrT has no Matchmaking system with ranks and stuff, it is very important that it has gametypes, where players can concentrate on one aspect of the game, in order to improve (tdm for aim, jump maps for movement, vs. bots for map knowledge).
The problem is the next step: Tdm to Ctf is rather straightforward and bomb is "easy" because it is a gametype used in many other games as well. But TS, the heart of the competitive scene is very hard to get into. And it is no fun at all for some decent players to play with some noobs in this gametype. They are blocking, running circles, team killing, ... which is way easier to forgive in CTF and TDM. And in bomb, it is very safe that they at least will find each other.
So again: Yes I like the idea of improving the current types and adding one or two modes which fit into urt.
Now the but: I don't think any further game type should be introduced only for the purpose of having it, the reason is easy: The more gametypes there are, the less player will play the same game type at any given moment. With a small playerbase this is not very intelligent. I think you should focus on 3-4 gametypes and really push them. Make maps especially designed for them (maybe), balance them and the weapons so that each has a reasonable tactical depth in order to be competitive but be fun and easy to play as well.
Maybe even publish standardized configs and mark servers which use them in the server list. So that new players know: Hey thats Urt, it has those 3-4 (domination, ctf, ts, bomb) competitive game types, those 2-3 fun / training game types (tdm, gun game, jump) and when I want to have the x game type experience I can simply select y server.

Now game type specific:
- PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE TDM to have random spawning locations. That's so stupid and makes the gap between tdm and ctf way bigger.
- maybe you can change CTF in the following way: when both flags are taken: (0-5s) explosion -> reset. At first this might sound silly but give it a second thought. It forces the teams to be way more balanced in their playstyle and stops this tdm like situations where both teams hold the enemies flag at the safest point possible.
- ts: this gametype is my favorite and the worst at the same time. I love playing it, but I see that it is very stupid in terms of game design. It can get very slow, is very hard to watch because it can get very hectic and wide spread and no team has a direct gain by attacking. But I really like that you can use the map like you want, without a game type forcing you to use some positions defensively or offensively - but because of that, it only works on small maps with teams with decent communication and the will to engage. It is very hard to think of a change that keeps the good stuff and helps to avoid the bad, but the idea of a radar in the last 10 seconds of each round or something similar could be worth a try (but it would destroy the hide and seek aspect of the game if someone is left in a 1v5 situation which can be very funny as well)
- domination: I know this one is build into many games ourdays but I really dont think it fits to urt. It is played on big maps or very one dimensional maps. But I could think of a combination of the idea of domination and ts. The goal for each team in each round is to either kill the enemy team or hold a central point somewhere in the map for x seconds. This way both teams are forced into each other. I think maps have to be designed especially for this type and the central place has to be very open and hard to defend. It should be visible for everyone that some team is trying to take it and it should be relatively fast to take it (maybe 10 seconds) so that some "save the day" caps can occure. Maybe it could even be dependent on the amount of players which are trying to take the point. Maybe it sould reset after a team had failed to take it, maybe not, has to be tried. Both could lead to very cool situations. But please only one point, otherwise it will be very hard to spectate / follow / coordinate or very one dimensional map design.

And last but not least. Maybe seperate the competitive and the fun / training gametypes more visible in the game - this way new players know what they get before they enter a server and get crushed.

Wow I really have to learn how to write less and say more :D

[Mod Iye]

ringel, on 16 July 2016 - 12:30 AM, said:

- PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE TDM to have random spawning locations. That's so stupid and makes the gap between tdm and ctf way bigger.

we arent CS yet, are we :)
Also, i never understood why on earth in (CS:GO) TEAM deathmatch, you would spawn randomly.

ringel, on 16 July 2016 - 12:30 AM, said:

- maybe you can change CTF in the following way: when both flags are taken: (0-5s) explosion -> reset

So you are basically suggesting a change to the hot potato default? because that mechanic already is there, just with 20+ seconds you will rarely see it.

ringel, on 16 July 2016 - 12:30 AM, said:

- domination: [..]

Partially you are describing what CaH currently is: Run around fast, hold points until the score counter ticks, repeat. The points even get neutral after every count. The main differences to a domination gamemode are that there is no captime, you cant contest a point with more players on it and that scorepoints arent reduced BF fashion, but added for each hold point after a timer reaches 0. then it gets reset.

A domination mode with 1-3 points could be fun i suppose, but the current CaH actually inst too bad as a concept either, with the reset mechaninc making camping a point not really profitable.

ringel, on 16 July 2016 - 12:30 AM, said:

And last but not least. Maybe seperate the competitive and the fun / training gametypes more visible in the game - this way new players know what they get before they enter a server and get crushed.

That would really imply that Team+Round based modes and CTF are more competitive than others. Sure, FFA and TDM arent really competitive modes, but everything else can actually be played competitively. I guess some server setting related to auth notoriety would be the better choice here.


On a more or less offtopic note: can we pleas have freeze tag as a augment setting for all (round/wave respawn based) gamemodes, just like instagib is in 4.3? :)
I guess freeze bomb could be really interesting.

[hydr0]

Zenity, on 15 July 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

That is not the correct use of the term "skill ceiling" hydr0. The ceiling is where further improvement of your skills stops having any effect on your results. What you are talking about would be better called skill distribution (or skill curve). The wider the skill distribution, the harder it is for a lesser skilled player to be successful against a stronger player. This is not something that is always desirable, as it reduces accessibility and balance (especially with a limited playerbase).

I used the term "skill ceiling" correctly. In the game of FPS you live by the gun and die by the gun... aka aim/accuracy. The skill ceiling of being a strong gunner drops immensely when the damages are in the higher values. (Only exception being the SR8, one shot one kill)
It is less rewarding to have a better aim with an assault rifle when only fewer shots counts. Ironically I think you used the term skill distribution incorrectly, you normally use this term to describe the different divisions the league provides to separate the high tier teams from low tier teams in competition. (Or the way the brackets are made within their own division)

Quote

Getting the jump on players is part of the skill involved, and what makes the game more tactical. This is why 2.3 had a more tactical feeling, although it still felt fast paced compared to "real" tactical shooters like Counter-Strike.

Getting the jump on players in UrT is not skill related. Either you are moving forward or camping. This isn't a real time strategy game lol You are constantly exposing yourself to enemies in a fast paced shooter. You are simply hiding if you are not being seen and relying on your opponent making the move for you. Not much tactic is involved aka camping.

Quote

The core problem with this as you (hydr0) pointed out is that TS turned into a campfest in competition (and often boring hide and seek games on publics). The game played like a tactical shooter but wasn't designed as a tactical shooter, which caused all kinds of problems. For this reason I was very hopeful about bomb mode back in the days, but it was too little too late and the community did not embrace it (partly because it was too different, and partly because I believe it takes away a lot of the appeal of TS, which is the free roaming aspect).

Yes many TS matches turned into a camp fest. The team who embraced the camping style the most was zL. Every member of that team literally each picked a corner to sit and camp on. They were pretty successful in their style even at the highest competition but always lost to the top tier teams with better guns. (4.1)

Quote

Going back to what you said about the 180s, the more surviability you have, the more likely you can outplay a player who gets the jump on it. The opposite of UrT in that regard is a game like Quake Live, where getting the jump on an opponent will give you an edge but only rarely the kill if you are not at least evenly matched in terms of skill with the target. You can't say that one is superior to the other, otherwise we'd all be playing Quake Live. It comes down to preference, and we need to remember why people chose to play Urban Terror over other arena shooters to begin with.

Quake is mostly about one shot kill and you jump around with infinite energy. None of their weapons has recoil or spread. It's an entirely different game.

Quote

Of course the flipside is that skilled players enjoy the feeling of complete dominance over weaker players, essentially becoming untouchable. But satisfying a small number of elite players at the expense of the majority of average players is generally not a recipe for success... Unfortunately the elite players tend to be the most vocal in community forums, which can skew perceptions quite dramatically. Striking the right balance in this regard is always one of the hardest parts of multiplayer game design, and it's something we need to tackle properly.

This isn't about elite players wanting to have 10:1 kill death ratio lol I was simply stating that 4.2 has lower skill ceiling due to high damage values in groin and butt lol

4.1 satisfied both the pros and the noobs. (High activity in both competition and public casual servers) 4.2 didn't satisfy neither unfortunately.

[=SC=ringel]

Iye, on 16 July 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

So you are basically suggesting a change to the hot potato default? because that mechanic already is there, just with 20+ seconds you will rarely see it.

Well, while technically this is true, I would not call it that way because it would be used completely differently in the game and I dont want to have the timing reduced from 40s to 30s, I want it to be 0 seconds or maybe 5. This would create very intense situations and would make it possible that a single player can prevent the opp team from caping without the current "take the opp flag and hide" mechanic.
Another way to solve this could be to make the player who has the flag visible in the minimap or some wallhack like blur to indicate where the flag carrier is, if both teams have the flag. But I dont think this really addresses the problem because in most cases you do know where the flags are anyway.

Iye, on 16 July 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

Partially you are describing what CaH currently is: Run around fast, hold points until the score counter ticks, repeat. The points even get neutral after every count. The main differences to a domination gamemode are that there is no captime, you cant contest a point with more players on it and that scorepoints arent reduced BF fashion, but added for each hold point after a timer reaches 0. then it gets reset.

Correct. But I would love to have the CaH mode without respawn, which is a really significant change. You could maybe have a storyline around it: Both teams are trying to steel some important information from a research facillity. In order to do so, they have to "hack" the system which only can be done at a certain point on the map. It takes a significant amount of time and the timer will be reset if the team is interrupted (maybe if a member of the other team is near enough or if the player who is "hacking" has to shoot). I think this could be played 5v5 with no respawning - this way it would be very similar to TS but has this engaging mechanic build into it to punish camping and hiding.

Iye, on 16 July 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

A domination mode with 1-3 points could be fun i suppose, but the current CaH actually inst too bad as a concept either, with the reset mechaninc making camping a point not really profitable.

I think domination with 1-3 points could be fun too, but only on publics with significantly more than 5 players. Maybe this could be the fun mode corresponding to the mode I just described.

Iye, on 16 July 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

That would really imply that Team+Round based modes and CTF are more competitive than others. Sure, FFA and TDM arent really competitive modes, but everything else can actually be played competitively. I guess some server setting related to auth notoriety would be the better choice here.

Iye, on 16 July 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

On a more or less offtopic note: can we pleas have freeze tag as a augment setting for all (round/wave respawn based) gamemodes, just like instagib is in 4.3? :)
I guess freeze bomb could be really interesting.

Maybe thats the mathematician inside me talking, but I like very well organized and structured concepts. I would love to see it this way:
Styles: Capture a target, Capture and Secure, Plant
Circumstances: Competitive, Fun / Public
Mods: Instagib, Freeze, Only specific weapons,...
Each style has a gametype designed for public (xvx random people) and one designed for competitive (5v5 with communication) play. The public centered one helps to improve within the competitive one and enables new players to learn the mechanics of that gametype as well as the general game mechanics. I.e. CTF and tdm, bomb and some variation with smaller maps and only one bomb spot (like in cs go), capture of many points with respawn and capture one point without respawn.
Furthermore there a some types and combinations of types and mods for basic training purpose (not to say that those cant be fun aswell): jumping, sr8 training,...
I think it is a pain that it is very difficult to find a server with the combination of attributes you are looking for in the current server list.

hydr0, on 16 July 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

I used the term "skill ceiling" correctly. In the game of FPS you live by the gun and die by the gun... aka aim/accuracy. The skill ceiling of being a strong gunner drops immensely when the damages are in the higher values. (Only exception being the SR8, one shot one kill)
It is less rewarding to have a better aim with an assault rifle when only fewer shots counts. Ironically I think you used the term skill distribution incorrectly, you normally use this term to describe the different divisions the league provides to separate the high tier teams from low tier teams in competition. (Or the way the brackets are made within their own division)

I think the word skill celling is misleading. Yes with the addition of goin damage it is more likely that a noob will win a 1v1 against a "pro". But a low skill celling would imply that it is very easy to become a "pro". Dont think thats the case. It is just not as rewarding to be the pro :) That beeing said, there is a other problem with higher damage per second: Camping. Because it is more important who shoots first, it is more rewarding to camp and play passive. I dont think thats what urt stands for and that this is a direction in which it should evolve.

hydr0, on 16 July 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

Getting the jump on players in UrT is not skill related. Either you are moving forward or camping. This isn't a real time strategy game lol You are constantly exposing yourself to enemies in a fast paced shooter. You are simply hiding if you are not being seen and relying on your opponent making the move for you. Not much tactic is involved aka camping.

Don't think so at all. Maybe if you talk about tdm this is true, but in CTF and TS it is all about map awareness, coordination and knowledge of timings. If you are better in that regard, you will almost ever outnumber the opponent in any encounter or have the first shot. UrT is a team game (at least in my eyes). If you talk about full publics with more than 20 players and no coordination you are right - but I think that's something good. This way new players can have a chance to get a few kills even against way better opponents.
But as I mentioned earlier, I think the goin / butt hitzones are very bad design as well - for different reasons:
- SR8 damage (97% goin vs 100% kevlar is stupid)
- Random hits on fast moving enemies. The high damage of goin hits are making it harder to play a very movement based playstyle.
- Not-linearity in skill improvement: In 4.1 if you are bad, you aimed for the body and the better you became the higher you aimed. In 4.2 this isnt the case. First body than lower body and than head. Thats very stupid.

[Magister]

I want to hear the argument for changing the behavior of the game when both flags are taken in CTF. Is there something wrong with this situation?