[FragginNewby (old)]

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Irresponsible to not provide a full anti-cheat...

My god... seriously.

Is that what I said?  Did I at some point type, without my own knowledge or realization, that my expectation is that FS provide "full anti-cheat" for the game?  No, that is not what I said, not at all.  But thanks for the complete and total knee-jerk, reactionary BS response when someone says something negative.  What I said was...

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I just think it irresponsible to say "Here's the game, cheaters are your problem." [...] Or is it just like they're cheating and you really don't give a sh!t how others deal with it because it isn't your problem?

That's what I said (italicized parts I added, including fixing the typo).  Show me that part where I said anything about FS providing full anti-cheat supoort.  What?  It's not there?  OMG - that would be because I never said it.  My point was, and still is, that it is irresponsible to release a game, expect people (and legaues) to use it, but ignore the eventuality (not probability, not chance - eventuality) of cheats and cheaters running rampant in the community.  I stand by that statement.

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The point you are trying to make in the first sentence (comparing creation of anti-cheat to creation of UrT 4.0) doesn't make sense. Let me tell you why...

4.0 was made by the last few people that were still motivated enough and at least somewhat enthousiastic about trying to create a cool free game. On their own time, for free. These great people all did their part (coding/mapping/animating/modelling/skinning...) to create the game, Urban Terror.

You make it sound like this is being done in a post-apocolyptic world... yeah, they were just barely motivated and enthusiastic enough to create a new company with the hopes of making some loot of their talents (something I completely support, btw).  And thanks for the lesson on how a "free game" is free - I was unclear on that. 

As for the rest of your lecture... um, yeah.  I'm fully aware that creating an anti-cheat system is a large task, very involved, time-consuming, etc.  But again, that's not the crux of my argument.  It's the attitude that cheating is not FS's problem.  Any gaming software company/publisher/developer would be lamabasted for such a statement or attitude that cheating isn't their problem.  THAT is my point.

Let's face it, the standalone wasn't released just for people to play without Q3, it was released with the hope of people moving away from Q3 ALTOGETHER, to allow the community to grow and expand without the need for an 8-year old game that is becoming more difficult to find.  Part of the expansion of the community includes competitive play, and part of competitive play is the need to deal with cheats and exploits - and there are a lot of people that don't think the answer "BE is on its way" is the end-all, be-all answer to the problem - not to mention that it wasn't really considered until right around release time, which to many seems more of an after-thought.

As for leagues before PB was adapted for the Q3 version - yes, it was done, it was workable, and it was successful.  However, that doesn't mean that leagues should be happy about the additional problems of running competitive play without anti-cheat and with the influx of new players (as that is still the idea behind the standalone - an influx of players to the community).

I am a big proponent of using the standalone version in competitive play, as it *is* the only way to make the community grow, add new players/teams in the leagues, and see the potential revitalization of this game.  However, people that play this game (whether they have been around for years or have just picked up the standalone version) all wonder about how cheating will be dealt with.  And I'll say it again - to say that cheating is not FS's concern or responsibility is a problem, imo.  And BE cannot be used as the excuse for doing so.  You can disagree with me until the end of time, it will not change my stance on the issue...

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OMG... Fraggin' Newby ... maybe you should think before you go posting while you're drunk.

Since you're a fellow admin, I'll give you half a break on my response and say this... 

"STFU, You should think before posting at all.  Did you read what I wrote or just what woek posted in response?"

[Woekele]

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You can disagree with me until the end of time, it will not change my stance on the issue...

I didn't expect you to, you never do. Your tactic usually is to simply ignore arguments once you realise you're wrong. Your other tactic is to quote one sentence from somebody's reply and bash that and ignore the rest.

Anyway, your arguments...

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Is that what I said?  Did I at some point type, without my own knowledge or realization, that my expectation is that FS provide "full anti-cheat" for the game?  No, that is not what I said, not at all.  But thanks for the complete and total knee-jerk, reactionary BS response when someone says something negative.  What I said was...

That's what I said (italicized parts I added, including fixing the typo).  Show me that part where I said anything about FS providing full anti-cheat supoort.  What?  It's not there?  OMG - that would be because I never said it.  My point was, and still is, that it is irresponsible to release a game, expect people (and legaues) to use it, but ignore the eventuality (not probability, not chance - eventuality) of cheats and cheaters running rampant in the community.  I stand by that statement.

Uhm, since imo it was pretty clear already that we DID NOT ignore eventuality of cheats, I assumed you wanted us to do more.

We did not ignore it? No, we didn't. It was already discusses more then half a year before the 4.0 release. We were aware of the cheat issue and that's partly why 4.0 runs BOTH on q3 (PB) and io-engine (licenses is another reason for that). That's also why there were discussions in the QA boards about it, a long time before release. That's also why we DID search for an anti-cheat solution long before release. However, such a thing is not easy to find. We did find BattlEye, which happened close to release time, but at least we had something.

And let's take a look at the history of the conversation...

You said: "would be nice to see an anti-cheat from FS or BE actually updated to be functional, but we know there's nothing that can be done about that here." - So YES, you are actually also talking about an anti-cheat from FS as an option here.

Then I said: "Something can be done if someone would put in a big bag of money, I'm sure" - meaning that with money we could actually pay the BE dev to get BE finalised quicker.

Then you said: "You mean a different bag of money than the one that FS used to have 4.0 made?" - so in this context, that would mean (even if you didn't literally say it): 4.0 was made for free by FS, so it's possible for an anti-cheat too. And I already explained why that was BS.

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You make it sound like this is being done in a post-apocolyptic world... yeah, they were just barely motivated and enthusiastic enough to create a new company with the hopes of making some loot of their talents (something I completely support, btw).  And thanks for the lesson on how a "free game" is free - I was unclear on that. 

Actually, yes, devs were basically done with UrT. Version 4.0 was supposed to be just a last few updated maps. However, it was decided to give the community a last 'treat'. The company has nothing to do with 4.0. Do you think the company was made to try and make money from UrT 4.0? No, it's gonna be other, future projects. Nothing was left to be gained from UrT, it was made as a last treat. So stop trying to belittle the effort by explaining it as a bussiness move.

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As for the rest of your lecture... um, yeah.  I'm fully aware that creating an anti-cheat system is a large task, very involved, time-consuming, etc.  But again, that's not the crux of my argument.  It's the attitude that cheating is not FS's problem.  Any gaming software company/publisher/developer would be lamabasted for such a statement or attitude that cheating isn't their problem.  THAT is my point.

Of course ignoring that other companies/publishers/developers actually are making money.

And it's not our attitude that cheating is not our problem. Our attitude is that we do our best to do what we realistically can. We tried our best to get an anti-cheat in ioUrT and UrT is still possible to run on Q3 (PB).

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As for leagues before PB was adapted for the Q3 version - yes, it was done, it was workable, and it was successful.  However, that doesn't mean that leagues should be happy about the additional problems of running competitive play without anti-cheat and with the influx of new players (as that is still the idea behind the standalone - an influx of players to the community).

It's just the best that could be done, bitching about it is pointless and doesn't make sense.

[nemesis]

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hrm, I doubt it... I know their are already cheats out there, just something that leagues are stuck with addressing.  would be nice to see an anti-cheat from FS or BE actually updated to be functional, but we know there's nothing that can be done about that here.

... and we knew were stuck with addressing it when we decided to go with IO.  I agree that it would be nice to see an anti-cheat and I hope that it does become functional in the near future, but I don't think the sarcastic comment at the end was necessary.  I also don't agree with the FS being irresponsible comment, but thats your opinion (It isn't our place to them what their obligations are IMHO).  I should hope that you would sympathize with FS in regards to their doing this without pay and that they are not obligated to do anything.  Perhaps it would be wise to lay off the sarcasm for the time being?  You're representing STA here. 

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Something can be done if someone would put in a big bag of money, I'm sure

While I agree that Fraggin provoked you with his sarcasm (perhaps intentionally), I do think you might have blown this all out proportion.

Anyways... what the f$#@ does this have to do with STA at all?  The two of you need to get a room and have your cat fight elsewhere.  For those of you still interested, we are still starting up the league shortly.  The new ping limit is 220 and we may consider hosting European divisions if we get enough participation from across the pond with intercontinental playoffs.  Something that is better summarized elsewhere...

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Abstract for TS changes:

The proposal is to allow for full european teams to compete within the STA league. This proposal would be issued as a challenge to european teams and north american teams to compete in the playoffs of Season XIII or XIV depending on the release date of 4.0.

Proposed Regular Season:

There would be 8 weeks of regular season game play for TWO (2) different frag divisions; one that plays on european servers ONLY and the other plays on NA servers ONLY. You can play for a team in any division you are eligible for, but you must pick one at the begining of the season. This means you could have North Americans playing in the european division and Europeans playing in the North American division. They would have to play at the times scheduled for that division.

There would be one map played two or three times per match during these 8 weeks. Match wins would be based on map wins. We are still going to use the standard STA rules: no wave respawn, map wins, 20 minute rounds, etc.

With the conclusion of the regular season, the top fifty percent of teams from the two separate divisions or top 4 from each division would enter the playoffs. The playoff seedings and scheduling would be based upon what has been previous outlined in the ruleset.

Ex: The top usa team would play versus lowest ranking european team. The top european team plays against the lowest usa team.

Overall Implications:

a) We would switch to a 5v5 match system and base match wins still on map wins.

b) Regular season games in the NA division have to be played with the traditional rules: Northern Mexico, USA, or Southern Canada.

c) Regular season games in the European divison have to be played on European servers.

d) The playoff matches must occurr on the east coast U.S. and western European servers. This is to ensure as fair of field as possible.

e) The ping limit would be raised to 200-220. Player and team eligibility would be based on flux instead of ping. The flux of all players on both sides would be monitored by an STA program that gathers ping data periodically. We will figure out a proper algorithm for deciding if someone is lagging too much at a later point.

f) New playoff format.

The implications listed here would be voted on a later date.

If we can get the TS times changed, then it would be possible to have euro and NA teams in the same division. However, would that put off our current teams? Otherwise, I think we have to have an equal number from each division go to the playoffs.

We can compare teams within divisions but not across divisions. The top euro playing the bottom US team is fair. If we try to compare their schedules any closer than their ranking, it's not fair because they have no opponents in common.

Regards,

STA Administration

For the most part this is still accurate, but we are in the process of voting on whether we will be playing BM or TS next season.  If you're interested, I would join in short order so that you're involved in making the final decision.

[Woekele]

If you want, we can get together and put together a nice newspost on the frontpage to let people know about the new STA season.

[nemesis]

That would be appreciated!

[FragginNewby (old)]

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Perhaps it would be wise to lay off the sarcasm for the time being?  You're representing STA here.

TBH, I wasn't trying to represent STA here, but my bad nonetheless.  I stand humbled and reticent

That said, people need to join STA for the upcoming season, tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell people you don't even know... ioUrT is making its debut in League Competition and you don't want to miss out on the fun.


Sorry for fvcking up this thread with my personal opinions - they in no way reflect the opinion of STA as an organization.

[Kr0m]

PS.
- Tentative start date: we're considering moving this until after the North American high school exams and 1st/4th of July holidays over with. There isn't much point in starting the league until, say at least July 8th.
- As for clans from Europe... any of you clan leaders from Europe should either post here, drop by the STA Announcement forums and express your interest. Or main concern is the timezone issue (the majority dont care much about the ping issue anymore), something like a seperate division could be worked out if there's enough interest.

[Phantomas71]

we joined, you accepted us. ok.

but i got a problem to reach you (probably different times or real life things).
to ask some things.
when i have to register on your forum it ask me a log and pass.
how about if there will be not enough euro clans?
and other minor things

[nemesis]

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we joined, you accepted us. ok.

but i got a problem to reach you (probably different times or real life things).
to ask some things.
when i have to register on your forum it ask me a log and pass.
how about if there will be not enough euro clans?
and other minor things

 

I've just responded.  Let me know if anything is unclear and I'll get back to you as soon as possible, but expect 24 hr delays in between messages.  I'm usually busy during the day and only on 3-4 hrs during the weekdays, so I'll always be delayed in responding.

Regards,

nem`

[Phantomas71]

eheh me the same, maybe that's why we had difficult to meet.

anyway, thx a lot for the PM answer