[FS Zenity]

Team Deathmatch

I realise I shouldn't have used the term random respawns, as that makes people think of the bloody mess that is CS TDM. The better term is dynamic respawns, as in Call of Duty. Whatever you think about CoD, its TDM mode is far superior to ours and dynamic respawns are a big part of that. How it works is that maps have multiple spawn areas (similar to TS) and where you spawn is based on the distribution of players on the map. This way you are not going to spawn in front of an opponent, and you are still likely to spawn next to your teammates, but the action is spread over the entire map.

This solves the two main problems of our TDM mode:

1) Spawn camping. Anytime you need to punish players for playing the game most effectively, you know that your game design is bonkers.

2) Repetitiveness. Spawn, approach enemy spawn point, either die or arrive at their spawn (where you aren't supposed to be), rinse repeat. Dynamic respawns don't just spread out the action, but also ensure that you have a constant stream of things to shoot as long as you keep moving. It creates tension and makes you feel awesome for staying alive, rather than feeling stupid for lingering around their spawn point with nothing to shoot as a reward for your successful performance.

Call of Duty combines this with a lot of radar functionality which can give skilled players intel about the whereabouts of the enemy. Together this makes for a surprisingly compelling experience, and I definitely want to bring those elements to Urban Terror. As usual it will all be optional of course, but I'm confident that players will flock to it once they experience the new Team Deathmatch.


Domination

This is already essentially implemented in HD and I feel really good about it. I'm confident that it will work well even on maps as small as Turnpike. It's essentially TDM but with hot spots that center the action, and better suited for competitive play. It will also benefit massively from a dynamic respawn system like TDM.


Team Survivor

For publics I really like the radar idea. I also agree with the hide and seek aspect though, although I don't think it's healthy for the game if the last player is encouraged to simply hide in a container. TS lives from the moments where the last player turns up as the hero, and this is what should be encouraged IMO. The radar could provide progressive escalation, e.g. by starting to ping player locations with a large dot and low accuracy, and then gradually move to smaller dots with higher accuracy. You could think of it like the game makers of the hunger games, gradually enforcing an encounter before the audience (all the dead players) become too bored.

For competition, I really think that TS needs an asymmetrical objective though. There are two essential possibilities for this. One would be to let map makers define a custom objective for TS, which could be anything from having to control a certain point for a few seconds to a full blown bomb mode objective or something even more involved. The basic idea would always be the same: The attacking team wins by eliminating the other team or completing the objective, the defending team wins by eliminating the other team or letting the round timer run down.

The other approach would be to focus on at least one specific game mode to sit alongside bomb mode as the official TS objective variation (similar to how Domination can be considered the objective variation of TDM).


A specific idea I have in mind is what I call...

Hot Potato

The basic concept of this is similar to bomb mode, with the most significant difference that the bomb will only explode at the end of the round. It is not possible to win a round early without eliminating the other team. Maps can have a larger number of "hot spots" and they don't have to be closer to the defenders. They can be spread around the map. Also the position of the bomb would be broadcasted to both teams on the radar.

This basically creates a situation where you want to stay away from the bomb for most of the game, but it still provides tactical opportunities (e.g. to use it as a ruse). Only towards the end of the round is when control of the bomb becomes crucial. If the timer runs out with the bomb on top of a hotspot (whether dropped or in possession of a player), the attacking team wins. If it explodes anywhere else, the defending team wins. Picking up or dropping the bomb (perhaps even throwing it) would be instantaneous, so it would allow for a lot of dynamic last moment actions.



If all the above would come to pass, the list of game modes would essentially be four modes designed for competition (two respawn based, two round based), plus two modes designed for pubs only and a number of fun/special modes. The list could look like this:

Competitive & Casual
Capture the Flag (Respawn)
Domination (Respawn)
Bomb Mode (Round based)
Hot Potato (Round based)

Casual Only
Team Survivor
Team Deathmatch

I don't think that's too much, and I'm confident that we could polish all of those modes to an equal level (one thing that bugs me a bit about Urban Terror right now is the different level of quality between the modes).


I also quite like the idea of making Freeze Tag an option for every game mode. I don't think it's popular enough as a game mode in itself, but as a "mutator", it could provide a lot of potential fun value for relatively little effort. Although I do wonder what would happen in respawn modes when the entire team is frozen. If you have to wait to unfreeze on a timer, you could essentially be "freeze camped" and locked down forever. It would probably have to respawn everyone and provide a big score bonus for the team that managed the full freeze or something like that. That kind of goes beyond the scope of a mutator though.

[FS HappyDay]

Since we are talking about game modes, I'd like to point out one thing about TDM that hasn't been mentioned so far. I spent a big chunk of my UrT life on TDM Uptown servers. I agree, that TDM is mainly a casual mode and you can jump around mindlessly and shoot people endlessly, which is fun for a while on random servers with people of mediocre skill level.

When there are two or three really good people on the server though, things get exciting. The two "pros" basically ignore most of the other players and focus mainly on killing each other. I've had the most amazing cat and mouse games on TDM. You meet each other and let's say the other guy kills you. Immediately in your head you predict where he is going to run in the 5-10 seconds he has, before you jump out of the spawn and land in his face again (depends on respawn time and map of course). He also knows you are coming for him, so he tries to predict your route to him. Of course you also know that and try to keep one step ahead of his prediction. You're basically playing an awesome mind game with each other.

I'm not sure if this works on any other map as well as it works on uptown. That map is just made for getting quickly to any point and surprising your opponent by flying in from a direction he didn't expect you to come from. I also don't think this works with a full team of pro players. Things play out quite differently then.

I know these mind games also exist in TS, when most of the players are dead already, but then 90 % of the server is not playing while two people dance around each other for minutes. In that case, the game pace has slowed down to a crawl, compared to the fast paced nature of respawning again in 3 seconds and continuing the mind game.

That is what makes TDM interesting to me. Not everybody on the server needs the same skill level, it just takes a certain approach to the game from the highly skilled players on the server. The noobs can shoot each other, while the pros try to avoid them and mainly kill each other. The noobs don't get discouraged by getting constantly killed, but they still interact with the pros and get a chance to learn from them. The 1v1 battle of the pros gets more exciting by the random element of other players on the map. It's a win-win for everybody. This scenario is one of the most appealing things to me, that urt has to offer.

Changing the spawning system to a dynamic one, takes away the knowledge of where the opponent is going to respawn. That makes the mind game rather one sided. Of course, it's difficult to say what impact any chance has on the game without actually testing it and playing the game. I have the feeling though, that changing the spawns for TDM might make it less appealing.

[FS Zenity]

That's a super specific scenario though that does not affect the average enjoyment of the mode very much. Even if I ever experienced this scenario it wouldn't have stuck in my mind, because Urban Terror just isn't a great duel game in my view. It also depends on both players' willingness to engage rather than avoid each other, which seems more like a private arrangement than a proper game mode. I've played quite a bit of TDM because often I just felt like shooting without being challenged, and while I've occasionally enjoyed the slaughter, not once have I thought "this feels like a well designed game mode".

We'll want game modes which are good by default, and which are compelling enough that you want to play again and again as you gradually improve your mastery of it. Game modes which are good for a laugh or can be fun when played with a very specific arrangement of players can be nice for a change, but shouldn't make up the core of the game's gameplay.

[=SC=ringel]

I think TDM isnt in a bad spot at the moment and doesnt have to be changed. Reasons:
- Spawnkilling isnt a problem since urt has no things like air strikes or mines or stuff where you can really use the positional advantage.
- Tdm is designed to be fun to play without using your brain too much (if you dont want to)
- "random" spawn positions will not change that the gamemode is relying on a "agreement" of both parties to fight (which is the only reason you go on a tdm server in the first place)
- many maps already have multiple spawn exits (which are still relatively close but ban the exessive use of granades to spawnkill) and it doesnt change anything in the game - this could be a way to go, but having different spawning locations on very different positions on the map will change everything

In my opinion the strength of TS and CTF is that this game modes are symmetrical. It allows the players and teams to play in their own style and doesnt rely on map design. I always feel forced to use the map like the designer wants me to do in very asymmetrical and objective centric games / game modes (like CS bomb).

Addressing the question: Why is there any problem with the current implementation of CTF? In my feeling 70% of the time if both teams have the flags of the opponent at the same time, none is able to retake the flag (on full public servers and in competitive matches between equally skilled teams). This leads to a tdm situation with one less player per team which isnt good game design. The most important seconds are the first few (will the carrier be able to escape) and the last (how is the team positioning itself).

[FS Zenity]

Cross-steals are a pretty core aspect of CTF gameplay, but it becomes a problem when it happens too often. It's not always fun watching (or playing as) two teams trying to break through an almost impenetrable defense while one of each team has to hide in the dark.

A shorter hot potato fuse is basically the nuclear option, a bit heavy handed perhaps. I've also thought about the x-ray, I think that would go a long way at giving the attackers an edge in these standoffs. Another angle to tackle this from is via map design by defusing the most powerful defensive spots. It might also be worth considering a variation of Mr Sentry to guard those spots, so you can't go there with a flag in hand. At least it would make it easier to adjust maps without having to make major changes to the geometry.

[hydr0]

ringel, on 16 July 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

I think the word skill celling is misleading. Yes with the addition of goin damage it is more likely that a noob will win a 1v1 against a "pro". But a low skill celling would imply that it is very easy to become a "pro". Dont think thats the case. It is just not as rewarding to be the pro :) That beeing said, there is a other problem with higher damage per second: Camping. Because it is more important who shoots first, it is more rewarding to camp and play passive. I dont think thats what urt stands for and that this is a direction in which it should evolve.

You contradicted yourself quite a lot here.
If a noob has a much higher chance of killing a pro in a 1v1 scenario due to the higher damage values then the skill ceiling is by default lower. In which case it makes even the process of being considered a "pro" tier player easier/lower standard. If it's "not as rewarding to be a pro" then there is simply a less room to be a better player aka lower skill ceiling. You are playing the semantics game hard here LOL we technically agreed on everything else.

Higher damage values are just simply detrimental to everyone involved.

Quote

Don't think so at all. Maybe if you talk about tdm this is true, but in CTF and TS it is all about map awareness, coordination and knowledge of timings. If you are better in that regard, you will almost ever outnumber the opponent in any encounter or have the first shot. UrT is a team game (at least in my eyes). If you talk about full publics with more than 20 players and no coordination you are right - but I think that's something good. This way new players can have a chance to get a few kills even against way better opponents.

I won the world title in non-wave (where team coordination and team work is essential)CTF in the last real Ftwgl, obviously I know what I'm talking about than your average player. You simply don't get a jump on players by having some insane real time strategy tactics, the game is heavily relied on reaction time, aim and team coordination.

We essentially agreed on everything other then the semantics.

[Ikslorin]

There's also another problem with our current setup which we haven't yet spoken about. Now, this is technically not the fault of FS, and can even be changed today by the league admins, but it's still worth taking up here.

Currently in TS and CTF we use a 20 minute timer. This timer forces the loosing team towards engaging the other team, similar to an objective, but it also has some very problematic consequences from a viewer's perspective. Now this problem is also something that is present in things like football/soccer and other sports, which seems to do rather well - so it might be negligible.

But never the less, due to the timer every single match has somewhere between 0 to 7 minutes of gameplay (in average 4 minutes) that has no worth and no stakes involved. In TS, since a round of aggressive play starting with a rush takes about 30-40 seconds, you can calculate when it's impossible to tie the score. One of the biggest sins of shoutcasting is calling a GG before the game has ended, but currently it is impossible to work on the "comeback" story when it's literally impossible to make a comeback. Same also goes for CTF. While a flagcapture only takes 6 seconds to do, no team in the lead is just going to stop playing and let them take all the flags that are needed. You can pretty much extrapolate the time at which it's impossible to get back without a miraculous opening - which is the only possible storyline to cling onto for those minutes.

Most matches always end with some minutes of just filling air time by doing analysis of how one team beat the other together with working on the teams storyline throughout the tournament. That shouldn't be done during the game, but in the postgame analysis. Question is especially, if it's even possible to fix for something like CTF. I don't see any way to do that, but on the other hand, the problem is not as apparent in CTF as it is in TS.

Zenity, on 16 July 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Hot Potato
The basic concept of this is similar to bomb mode, with the most significant difference that the bomb will only explode at the end of the round. It is not possible to win a round early without eliminating the other team. Maps can have a larger number of "hot spots" and they don't have to be closer to the defenders. They can be spread around the map. Also the position of the bomb would be broadcasted to both teams on the radar.

This basically creates a situation where you want to stay away from the bomb for most of the game, but it still provides tactical opportunities (e.g. to use it as a ruse). Only towards the end of the round is when control of the bomb becomes crucial. If the timer runs out with the bomb on top of a hotspot (whether dropped or in possession of a player), the attacking team wins. If it explodes anywhere else, the defending team wins. Picking up or dropping the bomb (perhaps even throwing it) would be instantaneous, so it would allow for a lot of dynamic last moment actions.If all the above would come to pass, the list of game modes would essentially be four modes designed for competition (two respawn based, two round based), plus two modes designed for pubs only and a number of fun/special modes.

Very interesting idea, that very much builds on your ideas you expressed a few months ago. One question though: the bomb would still spawn with the attackers? How are we then not going to run into something similar to bomb on Kingdom, where a bombsite is reached by the attackers sooner than the defenders, thereby circumventing the taking of the bombsite and directly going to the second half of the round with the retake? I suppose that is unimportant, since players still engage, but that could lead to a 10:0 if the map favors the players on the site.

[FS Zenity]

Ikslorin, on 17 July 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Very interesting idea, that very much builds on your ideas you expressed a few months ago. One question though: the bomb would still spawn with the attackers? How are we then not going to run into something similar to bomb on Kingdom, where a bombsite is reached by the attackers sooner than the defenders, thereby circumventing the taking of the bombsite and directly going to the second half of the round with the retake? I suppose that is unimportant, since players still engage, but that could lead to a 10:0 if the map favors the players on the site.

Yeah the bomb would spawn with the attackers (although it doesn't have to be in possession, positioning it in a neutral space at first would be interesting as well). Reaching the bomb spot first is not going to provide nearly as much of an advantage, since it does not put the defenders on a short clock and "defusing" the bomb is not difficult since all you need to do is pick up the bomb and carry it outside the hotzone (which you can do at full powerslide speeds). Also it would give away your location early so the defenders would know exactly where you are.


Of course map balance still takes a part, and you wouldn't want the attackers to spawn next to an impenetrable fortress with a hotspot in it. :) Since hotspots can be literally anywhere, those kind of balance issues should be very easy to fix if they appear though. Also this mode would probably work best with variable spawns like TS.

[Magister]

Related to the topic of UrT and popularity, does FS know that a Steam Community has been created for Urban Terror? Is this the official Frozen Sand presence on Steam? Anyway, it provides links to the old forum address, so that should be updated at least. Also, the icon for the group is ugly and pixelated. Not sure if that can be fixed because it does not look nice. http://steamcommunit...ps/Urban_Terror 501 members it says.

[FS Barbatos]

This is the official group for Urban Terror on Steam:
http://steamcommunit...ups/urbanterror

The one you linked isn't managed by Frozen Sand.