[NulL]

Recently I have been considering spawn locations and game flow in different game types. I'm going to try to argue that TDM spawn locations are not in their most optimal locations for TDM gameplay in most maps.

TDM as you are most likely aware is a game where players spawn on their side of the map with the rest of their team. Upon spawning the players head across the map towards the other team. Some action ensues in the middle of the map; leaving the defeated dead, waiting to respawn back in their base, the victorious keep heading through the map to find more players to vanquish. Soon we get to the point where the stronger team's players are on top of the enemy's spawn, facing opponents with respawn protection and getting accused of spawn camping. This can quickly become dull for both teams. The problem we have with TDM, unlike CTF, is that there is no reason for players to leave the enemy's base once they are there - if they walk away so they're not spawn camping they might get shot in the back, also if they leave, where will they go? Leave just to turn round and come back...? So how can we as mappers try and improve the situation and create a more enjoyable game for our players?

A Case for Random Spawns - Having TDM spawns randomly positioned around the map removes the base against base situation I've just described where spawn camping becomes an issue. Not being able to predict the position of your enemy some people may argue removes some tactics, others may say it adds game dynamic. Quake3 used random TDM spawns, and it worked; however as we know Urban Terror is not Quake3. Team work is much more important in urbanterror TDM because there are no health pickups, player revival requires other players on your team to medic you. If all members of a team spawn apart will that have a detrimental affect on teamwork? So where do we go from here?

A Compromise - How about random groups of multiple spawn points aranged around the map. I allways use 16 spawn points per team per gametype; which I think can be split into 4 groups of 4 spawn points, each group can be placed in a different location in the map. This proposition gives players the chance to spawn with some of their team mates, and stops the spawn camping problem as the other team cannot guarantee where players are going to spawn. They can only guess that they'll be at 1 of 4 posibilitys.

Have we as mappers just being placing TDM spawns as an after thought to CTF? - thinking 'yeah I can use my CTF spawn points for TDM aswell, it'll save me placing some more spawn entities.' I've certainly been guilty of this before. I'm not able to test this myself so I'm interested to hear other peoples opinions on this proposition especially from regular TDM players, which I admit that I'm not.


- NulL

(I have a big rant to have about CAH too, but that must wait for next week's day off work )

[FS BladeKiller]

I think you make a good case for changing from the traditional ctf style spawns. I can give this a try on Uptown and see what QA thinks of it.

[nemesis]

Quote

A Compromise - How about random groups of multiple spawn points aranged around the map. I allways use 16 spawn points per team per gametype; which I think can be split into 4 groups of 4 spawn points, each group can be placed in a different location in the map. This proposition gives players the chance to spawn with some of their team mates, and stops the spawn camping problem as the other team cannot guarantee where players are going to spawn. They can only guess that they'll be at 1 of 4 posibilitys.
(I have a big rant to have about CAH too, but that must wait for next week's day off work )

It seems as though this would work, but only in the idealized case (in my opinion spawning together occurs seldomly, but I'm not aware of the exact probability).  You stressed earlier that teamwork was a key in this game type and so I would assume that people will have to spawn together, but I wonder how exactly this would occur. 

Examples:
- Assume 4 different players die at exactly the same time... whats going to force the four players to spawn in the same location so that they may form a squad and be effective. 

- Assume again that 4 different players die individually at 0 seconds, 4 seconds removed, 8 seconds removed, and 16 seconds removed...they all spawn at the same spawn... what is to keep them from moving out since most TDM players are interested in action and not sitting around waiting for backup?  You as a team and as an individual lose time and get behind.

Your idea would work if we have spawntimes coordinated with drop points (a form of wave respawn), but is the issue really with how TDM spawning works?  I think most spawn camping still occurs primarily due to some very obvious reasons... stacking and poor spawn design.  Creating multiple exits within an area allows for escape and if they are in the general area allows for players to coordinate.  Enforcing shuffling of teams ideally makes spawn camping a non-issue.

I also have issues with CAH and I'll go ahead with my gripe, but the primary issue is that  no map currently available supports it properly.  Its a scramble for flags instead of a coordinated team effort to control points on the map.  Teamfortress, TF2, ET, and to an extent BF2 maps filter individuals to common positions in a unit.  Most maps within urt have chokepoints, but they are spread out for flanking styles of play.  Properly designed CAH maps require flanking routes, but they should also in close proximity and the flags should be positioned linearly with multiple chokepoint stages.

nem`
 

[NulL]

Quote

Examples:
- Assume 4 different players die at exactly the same time... whats going to force the four players to spawn in the same location so that they may form a squad and be effective.

Good point, theres no way I can force them to spawn together in a single group, but there is still a fair chance that some of them will spawn together if they die simultainiusly.

Quote

- Assume again that 4 different players die individually at 0 seconds, 4 seconds removed, 8 seconds removed, and 16 seconds removed...they all spawn at the same spawn... what is to keep them from moving out since most TDM players are interested in action and not sitting around waiting for backup?  You as a team and as an individual lose time and get behind.

This isn't so different from the current base spawning situation, if they run off and dont wait for each other. In either case the players end up alone. Wave respawns may help here but I don't know how popular that is in TDM.

Quote

Your idea would work if we have spawntimes coordinated with drop points (a form of wave respawn), but is the issue really with how TDM spawning works?  I think most spawn camping still occurs primarily due to some very obvious reasons... stacking and poor spawn design.  Creating multiple exits within an area allows for escape and if they are in the general area allows for players to coordinate.  Enforcing shuffling of teams ideally makes spawn camping a non-issue.

Coordination would require changing the spawn code and so isn't an option thats available.

Stacking cannot be avoided, there will always be games where one side is stronger than the other. Some games will have balanced teams other will not, this just the way it is. Its damn near impossible to get a game where almost all players die in the middle of the map and none make it to the enemy's base where they have nowhere else to go.

Quote

I also have issues with CAH and I'll go ahead with my gripe, but the primary issue is that  no map currently available supports it properly.  Its a scramble for flags instead of a coordinated team effort to control points on the map.  Teamfortress, TF2, ET, and to an extent BF2 maps filter individuals to common positions in a unit.  Most maps within urt have chokepoints, but they are spread out for flanking styles of play.  Properly designed CAH maps require flanking routes, but they should also in close proximity and the flags should be positioned linearly with multiple chokepoint stages.

I haven't finished writing my CAH rant into coherent English yet, ill have it next week.

- NulL

[mitsubishi]

i had this idea the other day (for TS then) where the game has an algorithm that spawns each team player or team in whole, randomly, possibly with the exclusion of being too close to the other team or avoiding ugly spots, possibly by allowing the mapper define designated areas. of course, maybe more applicable in TS where the cheap kills because of predictable spawning are so often.

[Dragonne]

My usual method has been 2 primary spawn groups of 6 spawns spaced off of a base-like area, with the remaining 4 in the 16 total being dropped a bit randomly around the area. This causes the base-camping team to have to split their force to cover two spawn areas and can still throw an individual out of the normal areas for an sneak ambush from another direction from time to time.

I'm not a big TDM player myself, I can't see the point of just killing for the sake of numbers without an objective (it's a stat whore gametype IMHO), but the method above has always worked pretty well. My real problem is where I locate the two primary groups to begin with. TDM flow is a foreign concept to me. Get your group into a pack or two and rush. What flow?