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Optional TK'd respawn penalty in wave Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   BludShoT Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:32 AM

I understand that the art of tking is part of what euro's actually like about wave ctf, but there are some people who find it one of the main reasons not to like wave.

So my suggestion is to add the *option* (turned off by default), of a respawn penalty when you get tk'd.

Wave has a penalty if you blow yourself up with a grenade, because at some point people thought it was a lame tactic, where you could kill yourself with 1 second left on the wave timer so you could respawn right away with full health, or teleport yourself back to your base with full health.

Tking your own teammates to get the same lame cheap effect is also bad in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fine that people do it in wave because it's part of wave. I'm just saying that I don't think that's a cool game mechanic to begin with. However it is well accepted and even liked by many, so I am not suggesting getting rid of it, just adding the option to get rid of it.

So, with this option turned on on the server, if you get tk'd, you have to skip a wave exactly the same as if you killed yourself.

I'm not guaranteeing we will or anything, with the community so small as it is, but, if we had this option we might consider running a small wave ctf competition. Without this option wave is just.. unbearably bad imo.

I know this will probably turn into a flame war about wave lovers vs wave haters, but it's just opinions, please focus on the suggestion here :p



#4 User is offline   BludShoT Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:08 AM

Oh, wow, I didn't expect that positive of a response heh. My (possibly incorrect?) understanding is that in Europe and South America, this tactic is not considered exploiting or abuse, but an integral part of wave ctf; a pro tactic that teams totally do and coordinate doing all the time.

I dislike it and would have preferred if it was never that way, but at this point, you may 'need' to keep the option of the tk tactic or else I assume a bunch of euros would feel you are wrecking their wave game (? maybe not, I don't really know??) That's all your prerogative though of course and you seem to be well connected to the euro scene, so, should be no problem there.

This would only be a feature for match mode imo. In a pub setting, there's not going to be that coordination, plus there is usually a tk limit where people get kicked. In fact in a pub, this would just add to the grief of being tk'd because not only did you get tk'd but now you have to wait for an extra wave! Although if it was on in pubs too I don't think it would really matter much, since it's just a pub.

This post has been edited by BludShoT: 14 December 2012 - 04:10 AM


#5 User is offline   r00t Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:26 PM

Just wow... Not sure where to start.
I play only CTF for a long long time and I never play on non-wave servers, it just feels dumb. Wave respawn makes everything more challenging and that's why I like it - timing is everything. Sending players to long spawn and TKing your teammates at right time is important tactic. I don't see it as an exploit, it just puts wave respawn to a good use - helping your teammates or dealing another blow to enemy. TK respawn makes game fast paced and allows much stronger and faster attacking tactics, but also require better team play.

On any better public server, not completely populated by noobs, I get fast medic TKs by any better players and I TK them too. This is one of the reasons B3 bot is used, so you can forgive teamkills and every better player that plays on pubs knows !fp or !fa commands. Is sounds to me like in US, it's really hard to find good public server, so all you get is typical COD players, with no tactic what so ever... playing on such server will suck and wave respawn only makes it worse. But same way, with good team, you get better tactics and teamplay WITH wave respawn on good server.

Noobs hate wave spawn, because they don't have good timing and attack just after respawn, so they are constantly send to bad spawns by better players. They either learn how to time the attacks right or just go to other server without wave respawn. Nothing wrong about that, you have both types of servers. If someone who just started playing joins server with playes who play for many years, he will be raped, wave respawn or no wave respawn. But any player who wants to play good CTF, needs to learn team play. CTF isn't just about killing every enemy that crosses your way and maybe going for flag. Players needs to step up and learn something new or be forever known as a noob...

#6 User is offline   MajkiFajki Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:23 PM

CTF was normal for years. It works that way in Unreal, Quake and similar games. And it's not accidental, that those games were created in such way.


It's basics of Game design we are talking here. Not "skillz", "ratio nub!" and other things like that.

#7 User is offline   Nikki Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

View Postr00t, on 14 December 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Just wow... Not sure where to start.
I play only CTF for a long long time and I never play on non-wave servers, it just feels dumb. Wave respawn makes everything more challenging and that's why I like it - timing is everything. Sending players to long spawn and TKing your teammates at right time is important tactic. I don't see it as an exploit, it just puts wave respawn to a good use - helping your teammates or dealing another blow to enemy. TK respawn makes game fast paced and allows much stronger and faster attacking tactics, but also require better team play.

On any better public server, not completely populated by noobs, I get fast medic TKs by any better players and I TK them too. This is one of the reasons B3 bot is used, so you can forgive teamkills and every better player that plays on pubs knows !fp or !fa commands. Is sounds to me like in US, it's really hard to find good public server, so all you get is typical COD players, with no tactic what so ever... playing on such server will suck and wave respawn only makes it worse. But same way, with good team, you get better tactics and teamplay WITH wave respawn on good server.

Noobs hate wave spawn, because they don't have good timing and attack just after respawn, so they are constantly send to bad spawns by better players. They either learn how to time the attacks right or just go to other server without wave respawn. Nothing wrong about that, you have both types of servers. If someone who just started playing joins server with playes who play for many years, he will be raped, wave respawn or no wave respawn. But any player who wants to play good CTF, needs to learn team play. CTF isn't just about killing every enemy that crosses your way and maybe going for flag. Players needs to step up and learn something new or be forever known as a noob...


Everything he just said. It's not like the kill on low time is always 100% effective which is where the immense amount of teamwork comes in. If you're not precise, paying attention to what's going on and paying attention to the time, you can easily give your own teammate long spawn.

It sounds like some want to change the entire dynamic of wave CTF and if that's the case, then just stick with non-wave CTF. I am a lot better at non-wave than wave but I do like how fast paced wave is. I would play it more if I lived in Euroland and urtpickup was active during my off hours but I live in the US. It's dead by the time I can sit down and play it. It's a hard game-type to get used to after playing on non-wave CTF servers but it's definitely fun.

Also, I don't recall blowing yourself up giving you a penalty. I could be wrong but I believe only /kill gives you a huge penalty.

This post has been edited by Nikki: 14 December 2012 - 05:34 PM


#8 User is offline   Slasher Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:12 PM

I'm playing both waves and non waves in league and on pubs.

You obviously don't have very much knowledge of CTF waves and so I don't understand: How can you not like something you never really tried. As a euro, at first I thought non waves was dumb and boring until I learned how to play it properly. Take control of the map with your team and push together. It's slower but it's simply another approach of the game.

I love CTF waves so much because it's super fast and it's a matter of good timing at all times. It challenges your aim and your speed in a way non waves will never do. I think with time it also had a good effect on the euros playstyle, who are generally way less campy than NA teams in Team Survivor. To me what you are suggesting would be the same as not allowing medics in non waves CTF, makes no sense and would just ruin the fun of the game. You keep saying you think it's dumb that you are killing your own teammates, but I thought the motto of this game was "Fun Over Realism". as long as it's fun for the majority of people, then you shouldn't change it.

Try to past that aspect of tk that you dislike so much, find a euro team and play waves, you'll see how fun it is.

f2 for tk penalty.

P.S : Lemming and blowing yourself up with a grenade does not give penalty. Only /kill. However, you have to time it right :)

This post has been edited by Slasher: 14 December 2012 - 06:35 PM


#9 User is offline   JRandomNoob Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

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#10 User is offline   BludShoT Icon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:01 PM

See, I told you guys it would probably go this way :P

This is why in my original post, my actual suggestion is *Optional* tk'd respawn penalty, which is turned *off* by default. There's nothing about that that should threaten euro wave lovers. Granted, having BK and Raider maybe inferring that they want to change wave to be always like that is what is getting people's backs up.

Since you even have coders on FS who don't want this penalty, (not commenting on whatever the power structure is in FS or not), most likely you will not be changing wave to have this penalty by default. Which is why my suggestion is optional, default off.

I don't want to prevent people from playing Wave the way they like to. This option just would give another way to play it. The same as how Wave initially added another way to play CTF. When they added wave we didn't say they were ruining non-wave.

Non-wave is much more tactical and requires much better team play. In wave you all spawn with your teammates, so it's a simple matter of spawning and bam you are with your team. In non-wave you need to keep track of 6 different enemy locations and respawns. Unless you play close attention (and even if you do), enemies may spawn at any time, unlike wave where you know exactly when they will spawn. So choosing when to attack or hold or defend is a much more complicated issue in non-wave. Also the players must work at map control and meeting up with each other in a way you never have to do in wave. Non-wave CTF is simply a superior game type, while wave is just dumbed-down ctf. This argument will NEVER WIN on a forum that is predominantly filled with wave ctf fans. So I don't think that I will convince anyone, but I just felt like stating the facts as I see them. (This will probably spawn a bunch of flame-ish responses, but oh well :D )

I have zero problem at all with people loving wave, and with people loving wave exactly the way it is now. I don't want to take that away from them. I *know* that the tking aspect adds in another level of tactics and team coordination.

I just don't like it. Not because I am a noob, or because I don't understand wave. (I played a couple seasons of wave in Urtla, so I'm not saying I'm pro at it, but I know what it's like.) The tking aspect is just something I don't care for. And as you say, "fun over realism" but that gets into the subjective nature of fun. For me that isn't fun, for you it is, so good for you. For me it is counter to my way of thinking about games like this. I see games like this as a struggle for survival, where you and your teammates help each other out, and fight against the odds to your last drop of blood.

The tking mechanism breaks that sense of immersion for me, and adds an element that I just find irritating, and I know other players who don't care for it either. Hence my suggestion for this *option*.

But make sure you don't fight with me about *changing* wave, because I am not suggesting *changing* it.

BK and Raider, as is often the case with games, unintended bugs or exploits sometimes become accepted features over time. And this issue has been around for many many years and has become part of the game. Because those who didn't like it simply left wave and didn't play it. All the people who stuck with it did so because they either liked it or they didn't mind it so much as to make them quit. That makes it similar to rocket jumping in quake 1, or strafe jumping techniques in the quake series that were originally just code anomalies.

So adding my suggestion would be a simple matter, but changing it all to that would probably be a very uphill battle for you, and imo I don't support that change because I believe in more options, not less, so that people can choose what they like. But I understand you are the devs and it's your game to make how you like, but, I think the time to exercise that direction was like 4+ years ago when wave was introduced, now it's too late, you created a monster ;)

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