[|P|Nitro]

spadino, on 25 August 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

One question, if one player use cheat's for test in a private srv or local lan, or remote, the AC can find he and he'll be banned?

If you are logged into your urt account and authenticated ingame whilst using a cheat you have the potential to be flagged and if that happens you will be banned. there is no reason you should be testing cheats period.

[[PCC]cyrus]

Frankie V, on 24 August 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

The data is empirical evidence and makes no attempt at identifying intent and only says this is what happened and based on observation alone we can apply a set of rules as to the limits of what would be consider cheating or is a sub-component of a cheat.

There is no doubt that the data is correct and can even read it with notepad but what is in question is what rules do we apply where we can not take into consideration the individual and only evaluate the information if the idea that there is such a thing as a little cheating were the intent is to remove the cheat from the game that was used.

For example some would consider camping and spawn fraging as a cheat but some consider these two to be acceptable. The other side of the coin if these two behaviors fell into the envelope as a sub-component of a cheat, as in you could not have camped or spawn frag with out using a cheat, then it would have to be included as part of the rule set and we could have just as easily asked the AC to included these two behaviors as empirical data.

If the question is did someone cheat with intent then there is no way we can tell if anyone intended to do anything which usually leads to a false positive.

Frankie, Thanks for responding. I will consider this as we move forward.

sneakers, on 25 August 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Here is my main point. There is some difference between hacking and cheating. Someone that hacks is always considered a cheater by definition, but a cheater is not necessarily a hacker.

For example, in a casual pub match, it is not cheating to spawn frag or to camp (although many people will whine) or even to use game glitches. Lots of people don't like it and some pub servers will kick or temp-ban you for it. But it is technically not cheating.

In comp matches this is different since everyone knows the rules. If the competition rules say you can't use glitches or whatever, and you do it anyway, then you are cheating by breaking the rules. That's not hacking though.

We all know what hacking is. Using any kind of wall, aim, or other kind of code that runs alongside the game client to give you an ability that is not inherently given in the game client.

I say cheating is cheating, not "hacking". "Hacking", as applied to gaming, is generally (but not always) carried out by the inexperienced dingdongs with about enough programming skill to do a google search for porn. To glorify that as "hacking", on any level, is sad and pathetic.

At the very most, one MIGHT be able to justify describing the person or persons who actually develop a cheat (or a hack) as "hackers". I think those that actually use them are simply nothing but cheaters with no concept of creativity or ability to create.

And to be clear, I would not suggest that any one who develops a cheat for any game is somehow doing a good thing. I am only pointing out that "hacking" has nothing to do with cheating, per se, and that "Hacking" as a synonym for "Cheating" is both incorrect and misleading.

[shoushou]

Sry to bring this again on the table, but I really hope to have some clarification about some things.


First thing is about that possibility to ban people who used cheat offline … is this even serious ? I mean, what’s the problem with the cheat ? Cheat causes problems not because some players use it as a weapon to be better than they really are, but because they have real opponent who get destroyed when they should not : that’s the problem. If a player had fun using a cheat against bots, there is nobody who suffers of this. Same if a moviemaker use a cheat for moviemaking. Same if a server admin use it to look at the demo (and, stop that bullshit, it’s of course more efficient to use a real cheat than that shownormals command, it’s just logic … in all FPS I know, when people look at a demo for cheat, they use themselves a cheat because that’s the closer they can go). If it’s not used against people, then there are no problem. Kinda same thing as a gun.

Well, my point is that, telling that a cheater can be permban without a warning is totally logic. Every player who use a cheat in a server with real people knows what he does, he knows what he risks. BUT a player who use a cheat offline for good/bad reasons has no reasons at all to think he does something bad, some of them does even do good thing with it. Banning the people from that list who use it offline would be a really bad move.

But if you want to forbid people to use cheat totally (meaning offline included), then at least mention it clearly in the first screen of the game, a message like “Every use of any type of cheats programs, even offline, will be considered as an infraction of the rules and provoke a permban”. Something like that should be enough, but you can’t ban people just because you have a different vision of the cheat that they can’t absolutely guess.


And the second thing is about your AC method too. This time I’m referring to the way you list cheaters, and I think there is a real problem in there :

The actual method (that we can see) is the following :
- AC is included in the game, and spotted people using some specific cheats if they are auth.
- The auth are listed, published and can’t be used anymore because perm banned of the website.
And that’s all. So there are two main problems : we all see that you ban only the auth and not the person (we just have to see the banned players who created an other account freely without being banned). So, in fact, we have a list of banned players which is totally useless for the following reasons :
- As the bans details (meaning dates of cheat using) are not public, then there is no way to prove that cheats were used during competitive matchs, so no way to change competitive results even when cheaters played.
- As players details (IP especially) of banned people are not public either, they can freely create an other account and play without any kind of problem : competitions and servers owners can’t banned them by auth because they use an other, no more by IP because it’s not public : in fact they are not banned at all.

There are only two real solutions to make your AC effective :

First of them is to ban the players, not the auths. Meaning that once a player is banned for cheat, you have to look if he create an other account (and ban it too), make IP public, ect. The problem with that method is that it need lot of time and people dedicated for it, and you don’t have it. More than that, every organization who was hopping to do that way gave up at a point, because it’s too much work with too much complicated stuff.

The other method, which is the one I hardly suggest you, is the following : you don’t ban everybody from the game, you just list the auths with the IPs which get caught cheating, and you publish it. Only publish, not ban. You can eventually make this banlist the default one in a server. And, one more important point, it’s really important to communicate with competitions owners in a fast way. Because if a competitive player use a cheat, it’s important that competition know it in the following days, else that mean the whole season is getting no sense for many teams. There are much way good points of that method :
- You give responsibility to server owners. That was the same in 4.1, the good servers were the one who used popular banlist (PWB and UAA as exemples), but these banlist were not forced.
- You simplify competitions owners job. Because most of them use a temp ban system, we can hope for a redemption from the players who get caught. In the case of a perm ban, they’ll just create a new account and owners will have to find them.
- The AC bit is not public, meaning you can keep working the way you want, but as you keep in touch with competition owners (which trust you), then bans can still be applied, and we can hope a clean game in competition. I try myself to find sponsors for UrT competition, close to succeed it, but it really matters that FS work with us to have a clean game on that.

Hope for an answer for these two points :)

[FS Frankie V]

shoushou, on 25 August 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Sry to bring this again on the table, but I really hope to have some clarification about some things.

There is no question the war has just begun and we only won the first battle with a preemptive attack

The goal here is to go after the cheat and not the cheater to deal out punishment which I'm sure Rob will say that you guys are very good at.

The problem with going after the cheater is you have to prove intent as to guilt or innocent where going after a cheat that is being used it's much easier to apply a rule as to unacceptable use.

As for using more than one account consider this fair notice.

It's a known rule that using more than one account is grounds to ban all accounts of that user no matter the reason for doing so. This does and continues to happen and will become a lot more strict as time goes by so if one is using more than one account notify RaidR, in private via PM, to have the accounts that you do not use removed.

[sneakers]

Frankie, is that more than one account per IP? I have multiple accounts that I have created so far on this IP. Do I need to PM RaidR to have them removed?

[FS Frankie V]

sneakers, on 25 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Frankie, is that more than one account per IP? I have multiple accounts that I have created so far on this IP. Do I need to PM RaidR to have them removed?

You answered your own question.

If one has done something they feel could lead to being baned then you should contact RaideR to ensure you just made an honest mistake.

If he finds out after the fact he has no choice but to proceed based on the rule set.

Remember we can not judge intent.

[diRf!Nikki]

I don't even understand why everyone knows having any type of cheat on your computer is bad yet still tries to justify it.

Who cares about intent - The cheat is there, it shouldn't be there, everyone knows it shouldn't be there, enjoy your ban, you wont be missed.

[|WC|Father Goose]

shoushou, on 25 August 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

moviemaking. Same if a server admin use it to look at the demo (and, stop that bullshit, it’s of course more efficient to use a real cheat than that shownormals command, it’s just logic … in all FPS I know, when people look at a demo for cheat, they use themselves a cheat because that’s the closer they can go).

Learn to use r_shownormals (and toggle r_shownormals) you incompetent.

There is no reasonable justification for bringing cheats to your computer. Keep it legit, get your Urban Terror files from this Urban Terror site.

[Silver Swords]

Frankie V, on 25 August 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

..the war has just begun..

this brings lots of relief to legit players. just hope the door isn't left open for more bacon.

[sneakers]

Frankie V, on 25 August 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

You answered your own question.

If one has done something they feel could lead to being baned then you should contact RaideR to ensure you just made an honest mistake.

If he finds out after the fact he has no choice but to proceed based on the rule set.

Remember we can not judge intent.

Thanks Frankie. I did what you advised and I'm sure RaideR will help me out. I just made those other accounts as aliases (innocent reasons). Thanks again.