[moonq3]

Barbatos, on 06 June 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

There is never nothing to do on the engine. I've for long wanted to port the iobumpy changes to our current engine but I don't have the time. Perhaps you would be interested ? :)

Glad to, I'll work on getting the bumpy code incorporated in the mainline client code.

Can I suggest Barbatos that you put the todo list in github so I know what to do next after bumpy?

-- MooN

[moonq3]

This has been a good conversation, and I think the points that matt and hasufell have brought up are important.

FS has been the target of raging for quite a while now, including being under some nasty attacks in the recent past, which probably only continue. So, I understand why they feel like the community is always bitching and not helping, and are on the defensive mode.

At the same time, the UrT community is probably one of the best gaming communities I have ever played with, and that's the only real reason I'm still into it. I think the same is true for many people.

I think it is worth FS re-evaluating their response in light of what matt and hasufell have brought up.

Take me as an example. I am genuinely interested in contributing and have the skills to do so. I'm not a kid playing this thing, and have been out of grad school for a long time now. I can help, and when I offered I got 2 things:

1. A pretty negative attitude

2. Pointed to a github repository with little information on what needed to be done

A more attractive approach might include a "welcome aboard glad you can help" and a well-maintained github repository with clear milestones and project targets in it. I'm not butthurt and I understand why the response and github repository are the way they are at the moment, but evolving these two things in a better direction could go a long way to generate more help from the community.

-- MooN

This post has been edited by moonq3: 09 June 2014 - 02:38 AM

[Fenix]

Now, this is a proper way to ask stuff without bitching around. I guess a lot of people might learn something from your post moonq3.

[thelionroars]

moonq3, on 09 June 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

A more attractive approach might include ... a well-maintained github repository with clear milestones and project targets in it.

My understanding is that work is continuing on 4.2, but it is for the most part* restricted to bug fixes. Anyone can report bugs on the github issue tracker. If these pertain to the client or updater and someone wants to patch, or has an improvement for these aspects of the game, all they have to do is fork the repo and send the changes upstream. I'm sure they will be welcome.

*Barbatos has mentioned publicly that he has been working on an official zombie game mode for 4.2. I don't know if there is much else in the pipeline in terms of new features.

[hasufell]

Fenix, on 08 June 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

Instead of asking for job to be done, fork the code and send a pull request

What?

You don't really expect anyone to work on non-trivial patches if he's not even sure that upstream gives a s***. That's not how opensource works. You communicate with upstream first, check what they think and if they say "good idea, patches welcome" someone might start working.

No one puts hours and hours into a patch after such a response. Err.

[Fenix]

hasufell, on 09 June 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

What?

You don't really expect anyone to work on non-trivial patches if he's not even sure that upstream gives a s***. That's not how opensource works. You communicate with upstream first, check what they think and if they say "good idea, patches welcome" someone might start working.

No one puts hours and hours into a patch after such a response. Err.

I'm not expecting anything, you are expecting for job to be done, I personally don't care

[hasufell]

Fenix, on 09 June 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

I'm not expecting anything, you are expecting for job to be done, I personally don't care

???

You either ignored the last ~3 pages or I don't understand you. I was explaining that you got serious problems with open development and lack of random collaborators and that those things happen for reasons you can improve.

Yet... the only thing you do is tell me to help, instead of fixing your project internal problems, so that people are actually interested to help.

[FS |HSO|RaideR]

Some reasonable posts here, so I will respond in kind. Before I might have "Covered my words" but after the Heart-bleed breach, I just speak my mind.

This community is fantastic! A majority are fun lovely people and I really respect and appreciate everyone here. Even the ones a fkn detest because they are a form of scum lower than Satan's ass-hole its self I am happy to tolerate at the very least their existence, if not try and rebuild old bridges.

The principle concern I have throughout my time in FS has always been one of protecting said people from aforementioned Satan anus worshippers and improve the quality and prosperity of the game. I have spent MANY years now doing this stuff and personally speaking i'm 90% happy with my own personal effort over the years.

FS spent over a decade in all its wonderful forms (SID / FS / TeamFS. If you built something from scratch, and after making said creation away so that others could "Bastardise it" would you do that?

In a perfect world we would open source the game, our artists would commit the assets of art / sound / animation and map. People would respect one another, the website would never be hacked. We could open "Public Development" and all work together in a world where UrT was made by the people for the people. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

Some ass-holes wanted the game opensource to take its code, replace its assets and make a mobile game .... for profit!

Some hate auth because why is it needed why raging about cheats.

Some rage about cheats even though we are doing our best

Some DDoS Urban Zone (i host it) because they broke the rules and got banned.

Some clans have "Private Mods" for thier servers to make them unique and don't want to share because it makes people play on thier servers. But scream for "Opensource UrT" so i can make yet more private mods.

Some say FS need more staff, yes we do, they never apply and even when they do, they don't actually do anything!

---------- and again ... we are revisiting old ground. So you get the point. I will stop there.

If you want FS to trust the community it has spend a decade creating with that said community. Defense from these idiots would be nice. Far to many people playing the game of neutrality. Happy to be passive aggressive and moan about FS when it's so obviously we have been shafted and really could do with some support or confidence. Why does everyone assume it's our fault. Does FS ever get the benifit of the doubt? why are we expected to give that away without any question what so ever.

So to conclude I say this. If you want to help with Urban Terror and feel you can be a benefit, apply in writing to my email raider @ urbanterror.info and you have my word it will be treated with respect and seriously. But if people wish to insist on "Give us game code now or else ..." they are going to get exactly as far as they have previously. No where.

We need more help, we always need help. We have a great team of friends and we all enjoy working with each other on a daily basis. If you wish to work on the project you must be over 18 years of age and able to sign a NDA / Contrib Agreement.

Many Thanks

[t3slider]

RaideR, on 09 June 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Some ass-holes wanted the game opensource to take its code, replace its assets and make a mobile game .... for profit!

That would be a licensing issue...you could open-source the code without allowing such things.

RaideR, on 09 June 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Some clans have "Private Mods" for thier servers to make them unique and don't want to share because it makes people play on thier servers. But scream for "Opensource UrT" so i can make yet more private mods.

FS' stance on mods has been so explicitly negative over the years that anyone willing to release mods would surely be afraid of FS doing their best to break their mod in the future. If you rely on something that is easily removed/changed, and the developers have a history of denouncing any modifications, would you really want to release patches that the developers can then see? There are really two discussions here (engine mods and actual QVM/asset mods [the latter of which is not tolerated at all and the former of which seems to only be tolerated reluctantly as a necessary evil of the GPL]), but developer hostility is a prime argument for private mods. Additionally, some mods may not benefit the greater community much and thus there would be no point to publicizing them.

RaideR, on 09 June 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

So to conclude I say this. If you want to help with Urban Terror and feel you can be a benefit, apply in writing to my email raider @ urbanterror.info and you have my word it will be treated with respect and seriously. But if people wish to insist on "Give us game code now or else ..." they are going to get exactly as far as they have previously. No where.

The problem with this approach is that some people may not be fantastic coders, but there may be a bug that has been sitting around seemingly forever that a less capable programmer could at least diagnose (if not attempt a fix) if the source was available. As it is, there are years-old bugs that have been reported that no one in FS seems at all willing to address or fix (which is fine); but because the source is closed, we rely 100% on FS to diagnose and fix these bugs.

I would be happy even with an open source codebase (or even fragments with anti-cheat removed, though maintaining a repo like that would be unreasonable) with a non-permissive license, so at least some fixes could be submitted even if a fork is not allowed. As it is we are at the mercy of developers who (rightfully) enjoy adding new features over fixing existing ones, and the barrier to entry is high enough that few people will join the developer team.

Both options (keeping the source closed and opening it up) suck, but it is my personal opinion that the community would be better served if it was opened up. Most FS members clearly disagree, and really I'm not sure of the legality of open-sourcing if you didn't force contributors to transfer their ownership of contributions to FS in the first place (and with a project as old as UrT there is certainly a good chance that open-sourcing would be illegal and therefore a pointless discussion). But only FS would know that anyway.

At the very least I would hope most would agree that the current situation is sub-optimal, though whether or not it can be improved is debatable.

[Fenix]

hasufell, on 09 June 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

I was explaining that you got serious problems with open development and lack of random collaborators and that those things happen for reasons you can improve.
Yet... the only thing you do is tell me to help, instead of fixing your project internal problems, so that people are actually interested to help.

I got no problems since I'm not a FS member, that is what you do not understand