[GlaD-slackin]

radiant, on 06 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

p.s.Horse-a-f is GOD

Obviously. Thats why all the leagues play his maps and why his maps are all included in the game.

[[T]BludShoT]

radiant, on 06 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Bludshot, the q3engine limits are ridiculous nowdays. That's a fact.
If you always care for those limits, you'll end up mapping close, narrow, boring maps.

It doesn't really matter if the q3 limits are 'ridiculous'. If they are too ridiculous for you, don't make maps for it. If you don't care for those limits, your map won't have good performance, which pretty much kills its chance of being played. The limits don't mean you can never make a wide or open map, but understanding them means that when you do make something wide and open, you mitigate it by having less detail in that space, for example. Or using tricks to make it feel more open when actually you've properly sealed off the spawns for example.

radiant, on 06 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Eagle and Riyadh are far better.

Even those maps try to take into account the limits of the engine. If they didn't have the bits of optimization they have, they would perform much worse. Also, partly this thread has been about making widely accepted and used maps (which includes competition), and Eagle isn't one of them. I think it was great fun in pubs back in the day though, and that maps like that have their place. (It's actually an excellent map.) But if a new mapper wants to reach a widest audience possible, he shouldn't follow in the footsteps of Eagle. If he wants to make an Eagle-like map, then sure.

radiant, on 06 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Hopefully larger and more open maps can be supported with the help of newer cpus and gpus, balancing the q3engine problems.

This basically won't happen. The q3 engine is old. It was made in a time when processing power was done on the cpu, not the gpu. It also doesn't take advantage of multi-cores. So that means if you throw newer GPU's at it, it doesn't speed up. If you throw more cores at it it doesn't speed up. Roughly speaking, for urt, a 2.2 ghz quad core from 2010 is slower than a 2.6 ghz pentium from 2004! Urban Terror 2 might address this (well, I call urtHD urban terror 2 :p because I consider it a whole new game) but Urban Terror (4.x) can't.

The question is do you want to build a map *for this game* or for some other reason. If it's *for this game* then you would be wise to do things this game needs you to do.

radiant, on 06 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Personally i map because i play in lan with a group and i find funny to test different stuff made by myself, and creating maps that can avoid my friends complaining about unbalancing, bugs, etc.

In your case, you can pretty much do whatever you want. Your friends will play the maps you tell them to play at your lans :P My advice is for people trying to reach a large audience by making quality maps.

radiant, on 06 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

p.s.Horse-a-f is GOD

I actually appreciate the good things about his maps more than some people, but, frankly, Horse-a-f is a prime example of someone who doesn't consider the engine he's making maps for. All his maps are box maps. That's not how you make a good map. But again it comes back to your goals. Horse's maps are pretty fun to play on pubs, and I think a lot of them visually look kinda neat with cool textures etc. And he obviously has skill and knowledge in radiant. Now if he just knew how to make a map he could really make some cool things ;)

Snobbyness aside, Horse's maps also show part of what I was saying, which is that the requirements for a half decent pub map are much lower than those of a truly solid and popular future classic urt map.

Rylius, on 06 August 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Also, kudos to BludShoT. That post is amazing and describes the situation very accurately.
You okay if I put it up on the CMM.org Wiki as some kind of introduction?

Sure. Would be cool if it was attributed to me though.

[radiant]

Delirium, on 06 August 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

You must be new here :)

I am! I play UT since feb 2011, and begun mapping in aug 2011.

But my first FPS has been Wolfstein 3D (1992) and started mapping for Duke Nukem 3D (1996), so i have a common sense of what is fun, what is not, even if i am not a pro mapper (read: do that for living).

@ blud, thanks for clarification about the engine, i knew something but not in this clear way. :)
I found myself engine problems with my first (too) huge map i did here QQ

But:

I have serious problems understanding why Casa is said to be a "great map" (i find it bidimensional and not tactic at all), while today gameplay is focusing on classes (even too much) and variety of opportunities in a single map.

I think that the bright sides of UT are that with a light game (and light rough maps) you can play for free, even with basic machines, having around the same fun (or more) of more recent games.

UT itself has sniper weapons, rusher weapons, middle range, close range, etc etc so the class concept is something wanted by FS.

So the question is: why in this environment a flat map (flat in its architecture and its gameplay) is considered "great" ?

When i map (with limited skills and patience compared to Horse or Johnnyenglish) what i try to do is making "open maps" not only in the forms (accordingly with the limits said above) but "open" in the possibilities the players have to move, find spots, camp, rush or run away with the flag.

What i try to do is create a stimulating environment where players can invent their way. I try to suggest paths and spots, without forcing.

Designing 4 or 5 very clear, or forced, paths is something more for single player, where you have to balance the overwhelming power of human mind over AI, forcing player to go where he wouldn't ever go in real world.

Far Cry 2 single player is 10k times better than BF3 or CODWM campaigns, for this reason.

Back to the question: can you explain why is Casa "great"?
I think this is in topic, cause my map making could be in the wrong way with player expectations.

[Delirium]

radiant, on 07 August 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Back to the question: can you explain why is Casa "great"?

You're stepping into the wrong neighbourhood asking questions like this!
http://www.twisted-s...tut2/index.html
Read that through

Casa fits almost all gameplay dynamics for UrT, it makes a great CTF,TS,BOMB and TDM map... Most maps are generally aimed at the public, for 'fun' TDM or CTF gameplay. Some other mappers like myself tend to map for the competitive UrT community, making the map specifically for TS/BOMB with CTF merged in (TDM works on anymap to be blunt..)

Take Riyahd for example, it makes a Great CTF map, but horrible TS/BOMB map, symmetrical maps don't work well for TS or BOMB. Eagle too, it's 'fun' (not great, but fun...) in CTF and TDM... but for TS or BOMB it's pretty average.

[wG*Swiiitan]

Well i have to agree to you bludshot of all you said.

But i have to agree with Radiant aswell, Casa its a very balanced map and the size is pretty much perfect for TS
i would in fact say its "TOO" balanced. It makes it a really really boring map with a slow gameplay.


and Horse-a-f is a god, at making really funny and good looking TDM maps :)
I dont want to start any rumors but i think the reason all the mappers pretty much h8 him is cause
they are jelous at the way he makes his maps :)

[Delirium]

Anyone who knows HOW to make a map has a perfectly good reason to dislike HAF... His brushwork is clumsy and disgusting, there is no VIS whatsoever in any of his maps, the only reason his maps get played a lot is cause they fit pub style gameplay.

Not to mention with his maps... you can NOT hear anything to do with the game due to the volume of all his sounds :) I have respect for him, sure. I just dislike the way he does things

[wG*Swiiitan]

Maybe its clumsy and some noclips is stupid and stuffs like that, but it does'nt mather cause it works for the kind of persons that plays it, and whatever you say i actually like the visuals of his maps, especially his newest map its so beautiful. and tell me m8, in the middle of a war(cause that is where his maps put us in) do you think all you would hear is some silly music being played? no it would be load and your ears would ring and you would wish you brought some earplugs...
i can agree that its very load sounds but that is part of the maps and i can feel with that.

no offense i love the silly music in other maps aswell(such as your owns)
but in his maps, it fits.

i know that you put alot of time into your maps and they look amazing but imo i rather play ugly maps with gr8 layout. and if i wanna play an amazing looking game i go for battlefield 3 instead

oh and one more thing: One of the reasons why i love Urban Terror is the jumping and the Parkour/FreeRunning feeling and Horse-a-f has alot of maps with great jumps and that is also a reason why i love his maps, i could jump around by myself for a long time. with your maps for example i would never have felt that.

This post has been edited by JustMe...: 07 August 2012 - 08:59 PM

[ValkoVer]

Because maps by Delirium dont have roof acces, which is actually good for urt because of gameplay and performance.
inb4 uptown

[maajdson]

Small or big maps mean absolutly nothing , if you really understand gameplay you can do a giant map as good as turnpike even better and ofc competition playable.

Urt is a really hard game to conceptualize, way more complex than cod or cs etc because of the jumps mooves, yes just cause of this it is one of the hardest mutiplayers fps to make maps.

Quote

It is true that there is a disconnect between league communities and mapping communities. But whose fault is that really?

you will never learn something on gameplay from players, they can play 1st div they are stupids as 10 div. Simply because players are players not mappers.

Quote

I have serious problems understanding why Casa is said to be a "great map" (i find it bidimensional and not tactic at all), while today gameplay is focusing on classes (even too much) and variety of opportunities in a single map.

casa non-tactic ? yet in wich case, ts, ctf, cah ? and the server rules ? if you take casa ts clanbase competition rules this is the best map of team survivor in terms of gameplay conception (there are criteria of conception). If you take casa ctf clanbase competition rules the map is bullshit, not choosen or by idiots(there are criteria for idiots too, i am one). I won't going to teach you here the reasons why casa ts is so good it would require me too take 20 pages talking about team survivor logic, force, intensity, time, possibilities/constrains, player's needs etc..

Quote

So the question is: why in this environment a flat map (flat in its architecture and its gameplay) is considered "great" ?

You really should start studying gameplay man, wtf is a flat map i don't understand what that shit, what does mean "flat" ? the opposite is "round" ? learn to ask the rights questions or you will always do roundedmap ahah

Quote

But i have to agree with Radiant aswell, Casa its a very balanced map and the size is pretty much perfect for TS i would in fact say its "TOO" balanced. It makes it a really really boring map with a slow gameplay.

TS
casa "too" balanced ? you should learn team survivor logic you too because thats rude to hear things like that, i don't see to much balance in the way of giving space advantage of the last round winner, but that seems to work pretty well because you never notice this.

To get back to the subject i trully agree with BludShoT and i think too that lots of urt mappers where from q3 and a new generation of mappers have to take place now cause olds stoped. Players now are waiting the new tub for ctf and the new sweetnutz for ts conception

This post has been edited by maajdson: 07 August 2012 - 09:47 PM

[wG*Swiiitan]

I said what i said about casa and i stick to it. iwe been playing div 3 TS i dont say im a pro or anything.. but i find casa boring and its not funny to play competitive or in pubs. then i find maps like: orbital, turnpike, sanc, and prague as more fun, both ways.

though i agree with that making a map is harder for Urt cause of the Jumping, that is so true.